Developmental @ CLE causes 2 incursions in a month

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

Still a deal, the trainer should be immune to discipline action if he did it, though.

Stan Marsh Senior Member The Beach

Well yes, it's a "deal" as far as we're concerned. But, as long as they file an ATSAP they have a get out of jail free card...for better or worse.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

My understanding was that the developmental was certified on CD/GC thus working on his/her own. To have to OE's that are similar in nature within such a short time is unbelievable.

I would hope that this isn't another case of management certifying someone without recommendations from the OJTI's.

Max Power Senior Member

it was in LC not GC.

KillaMike Junior Member

why should the trainer be immune from anything when his trainee had a deal? the trainee is performing duties on the trainer's ticket.

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

You read that out of context.

If the trainer filed an ATSAP report, he is immune to disciplinary action by FAA management. If the error is known by management, it is still processed as an error, but management can't discipline the controller for the error. ATSAP creates a non-punitive work environment to increase the self-reporting of safety-related events, like losses of separation.

When I said he should be immune, I meant that ATSAP should prevent him from receiving disciplinary action.

KillaMike Junior Member

ok, i got it.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Just so you know if you are an OJTI and while training a developmental that individual has an OE, the OJTI buys the deal not the developmental.

Also facility QA pulls data and voice tapes several times a month and listens to an hour session looking for OE's and OD's, then there is also someone in Washington who probably never been a controller can pull random data and listens for OE's and OD's.

If an OE or OD is discovered via random audits, that wasn't reported, the controller/s involved can be potentially charged with trying to cover up a OE/OD which leads to more trouble and hell from management.

MDAutry Newcomer

CLE has been under runway cluster Foxtrot for the last year and a half at least. First it was the center runway with about 6 incidents that I personally know of due to horrible construction... Then it was depart from the left land on the right... last time I was there it was depart from the right land on the left... no instrument approach on the left side by the way... The deal happened because they are landing on the left side and departing from numerous intersections on the right with nightmare like taxi instructions. crews have minimal time to prepare for departure, quick and complicated non-standard taxi instructions and a mess of construction. I feel bad for the controllers and pilots there... its not even snowing YET!

rcflying53 Rookie Chicago

You might want to look at the IAPs for KCLE. There are ILS's to ALL runways except 10. Matter of fact I have flown all of them. The airport is quite easy to navigate if you know what you are doing and have a diagram in the cockpit. Perhaps the controller had a lot going on, and that happens. Thats why we taxi with our heads on a swivel. And people who continue to line up on the old CLOSED center runway (takeoff or landing) should probably go ahead turn their certificate in now. Been there when it's snowing so hard, they had to close the runways every 1/2 hour to keep them just clean enough for a few planes to land. Gone missed several times due to pilot and controller issues. Mistakes are made and thats why we all have to work as a team to prevent problems.