On temp supes...

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

Controllers, if you'd indulge me, explain the widespread hostility towards temp supes that I've seen in the Union forum. Seems that back when the new contract came out, any time one would bring up a question he or she would get flamed all over the place. Explain the animosity to an outsider who doesn't know, please.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

supes are management. they are NOT natca. that's all it really is.

Radium Epic Member SoCal Tracon

wait till ya get to facility Ross! I got to see it my 2nd day Tho seems management is moving in a friendlier direction.
*edit (and with the oldest of the old school haters gone, new people see this friendliness and dont want to hate... tho we'll see what happens when whitebook v2.0 comes out)

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

Ross, the hostility came when NATCA and the FAA were at odds with each other after the IWRs went into effect. It may as well have been treason as far as NATCA was concerned . . . basically going from one side to the other. This is the reason temp supervisors lose their seniority upon returning to the bargaining unit workforce.

There are good managers and supervisors throughout the FAA, don't get me wrong, but during the IWRs, most controllers looked at it as NATCA vs FAA, and you were either with NATCA or against NATCA . . . that's where the hostility came from.

GLF5 Senior Member

There are some good ones. I've dealt with them. There are some bad ones, I've dealt with them. The bad ones are the ones that stick. While it is management vs union, there are the ones that generally make you sick because of their actions. They are the ones that try to tell you what you can or cannot do on your day off. They think you are a child and they are your daddy. Work over 8 hours in a day? Ah screw it, let's pay him in chocolate candies, he won't notice it's not actual overtime money. They steal from you. Just like when you are running 3 operations an hour getting CIC pay and the sup comes up and takes CIC, thus stealing extra money from myself and other controllers. It's not like he is making personal phone calls and checking sports scores on the internet while being CIC. Oh wait. Thanks for stealing from me prick!

Tip of the iceberg my friend. Maybe I just have bad luck but in the end it doesn't matter because I'm just whining, so I'm wrong.

zabnut Senior Member Albuquerque

I don't think we even need another bad imposed contract for many to see that management in the FAA is messed up I agree that there can be some good ones but as you get further on in your career you see fewer and fewer of them.

I think the time when people get really mad about anyone becoming management is partly what Roddy said, you become one of them and not NATCA. The two are so far apart even now so people have a hard time dealing with the ones that "Jump ship"

I think another part of the problem is most new management temp or not are one year wonders that barely know their own job, now are directing controllers, checking people out ect. Basically the ones that should be trying to get better at controlling instead of running for a place to hide from working traffic, instead they are checking out more weak-sticks (and future management) to their own standards.

Basically the FAA gives a person checked out only one year a $40K to $50K pay raise and offers an old dog like me 4%. People getting that big of a pay raise will sell their soul to retain that position, they will follow orders unquestioned. People like me that take a FOUR PERCENT pay raise to deal with the headaches are usually the biggest idiots in the building. Anybody that is anywhere a decent controller with 20+ years IS ON AUTOPILOT. The job is seriously easy at that point. The 4% pay raise ends up as a cut for me, no chance for OT and maybe lose sunday pay forced off on holidays ect ect.

So the criteria for anyone signing up for a management position is deer in the headlights guy with a full years CPC willing to openly wear knee pads for a $50K raise and stupid old guy that finally gets that they suck working traffic sprinkled with a couple that want to do the right thing and try to make things better.

Go ahead and give me heat for blasting management, especially if you are one of the weak-stick wannabes and future knee pad wearer. My points are valid at least in the center environment, for those of you that are looking at the FAA through your rose colored glasses of it being a great place, then good for you. I thought the very same thing when I got hired and an "old goat" that was at least 55 told me that the FAA management will always be screwed up, its how you deal with it that matters. He stayed around forever because he ignored most of the BS, but he told me that it was always the same, idiots in charge and idiots in charge of them.
In the '80s you at least had veterans that worked the boards for 15+ years before they where promoted, right now its the ones with the most deals gets selected before they kill someone. We reward poor performance with a $50K raise and we call that being fiscally responsible to the tax payers?

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

As long as y'all are willing to keep answering questions...

1. Why did temp supervisor positions exist in the first place? Why didn't they just create permanent ones and hire people into them?
2. Why was any controller crazy enough to take up a temp supe position? Surely they knew that sentiment towards them was pretty acrimonious -- and that they'd be returning to work among those same people later.
3. This one's a little more open-ended... out of the good managers you've had, at whatever level, what made them good?

GLF5 Senior Member

I don't really know the insides of it all, but someone I know was thinking of taking a temp sup position at another facility, get the money, act like they knew the operation of the other facility, check people out, be a typical pos and at the end of the temporary part of it, go back to the previous facility and keep the higher pay. Is that how it works? I have no idea. This person is usually full of it anyway. Some people will chase money around and not care about what they are actually doing with their life. That's this person.

The good sups I've had leave you alone and don't treat you like a child. They follow the contract and don't try to weasel their way around it for their own gain. They create an enjoyable environment so that when you are driving to work you are looking forward to it. I've seen some people take leave because they don't want to be in the same room as a bad sup...the one's who put you in a bad mood when you are driving to work.

zabnut Senior Member Albuquerque

1. Temp spots are generally to check out the FLMs to see if they do a decent job. That is not always the case anymore, now it seems that they are looking for people that are willing to play the game. (Follow orders)

2. Why take the jobs? First of all anyone taking a temp supe position is not worried what anybody thinks of them. Most FLMs will tell you that the first line (Temp or perm) is the worst job in the FAA. You catch hell all the time from above and It takes effort to keep people happy, some people are never happy, it is easier to just go with the flow and do nothing. So even the ones with the best intent tend to fall back and start carrying the company line. Like I said before the younger ones want the money pretty much, the older ones, well I don't get it either. A pay cut to be bored and have most people hate you at work unless you put forth a ton of effort when all you want to do is less.

3. GLF5 pretty much hit the nail on the head. The few that lets the area run itself and rarely forgets where they came from. Problem is that one great supe takes a break and the moron other supe ruins your day.

Great supes I have run into I could count on one hand, Decent supes are many but the moron ones are the majority by far. Most of the new ones don't even know their own area, LOAs and general ATC very well and are certifying people?? One of our supes came from FSS and has never certified ANYWHERE as a controller.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

I think one of the reasons they created temp sup jobs is that it takes less time to fill a position, from my experience most temp sup jobs become permanent.

I wouldn't want a sups(FLM) job for any amount of money. You get it from both sides. As far as "managing" you get to decide the break board, everything else is directed from above. The controller by and large disrespect you or even hate you. Miserable existence for money. The way it is set up now the only ones that are willing to take a temp FLM job are the young people because they really have no real seniority to lose and it is a signifigant raise for them. The more experienced controllers make a lot more therefore the raise is a lot less and they lose a lot of seniority.