CLT Runway Incursion - May 29, 2009

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

FAA just came out with the animation for this: Simulation

What blows my mind is how quickly Tower cleared both onto the runway. If there were some transmissions in between, maybe more of a wait where she's busy attending to something else, then I can sympathize to an extent. But it was one right after another onto the only active runway going in that direction (so no confusing 18L for 18R).

I enjoyed the loss of situational awareness in fog video more, with the angry woman on Ground, where she yells at everyone. I gotta go look that one up.

jarhead0863 Trusted Member Grand Forks, ND

You almost have to wonder what she was thinking.

I liked the other video that you mentioned a lot more. Heres the link to that one:
YouTube - United 1448 Runway Incursion at Francis Green, RI

DanielEtvs Trusted Member hank krakowskis

they made everyone at work watch this.... and i believe that based on how she handled this situation she should NEVER be allowed to work live traffic again. Its one thing to have an operational error or make a mistake... we are human and prone to errors.... but if when you DO make that mistake you just completely freeze up and offer no alternate instructions or try to fix it... show no sense of urgency...you have obviously demnstrated that you do NOT have the aptitude and the ability to effectively handle a job with such monumental consequences for error. it really was embarassing as a controller to listen to this.

jarhead0863 Trusted Member Grand Forks, ND

Are you talking about the one at PVD? When I first watched it, I couldn't believe how the controller reacted and how she just stopped everything. Being up in the cab without being able to see is one thing, but she should have never reacted like that.

The one at CLT, at least the controller reacted quickly and got both airplanes off the runway right away without freezing all of the aircraft. While she did make a mistake, she handled it very well. Just my opinion though.

DanielEtvs Trusted Member hank krakowskis

no I think the PVD controller handled ther situation as well as she could have. She was given several erroneous position reports by 1448 and had to get control of the frequencies/situation.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

Ehh I don't know about that, she froze initially, ie during the most critical time. It went something like "uhhh ............ hold................ ....................... uhhh.... Cancel...takeoff clearance.......Bluestreak...


No callsign no traffic info. Not my definition of handling it well.

PVD controller failed to realize there was a lost aircraft who MAY be on an active runway (they had just reported seeing the previous aircraft pass by) and still cleared an aircraft for takeoff. The pilot who refused saved that day.

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

That's it. I haven't seen that version... nice visualizations. PVD has since converted 28R into a full-time taxiwawy (and rearranged taxiway markings so there's no longer any K or K1), so it's harder to follow along by watching the current chart while listening.

I dunno. United was obviously lost, but she got bent entirely out of shape instead of keeping her cool. And, far more importantly (and dangerously) is what boondr pointed out -- a plane said that they were on an active runway, that someone took off right in front of them, and she goes ahead and clears another takeoff anyway.

Just to play devil's advocate, look at the time between when the warning goes off and when the planes come together. By the time she heard it and could process the information and determine the solution, it had already happened -- the RJ had dodged right and all that was left was to clear them both off. I'm not saying she handled it well, just that it was out of her hands by the time she realized what was happening.

The NTSB report mentioned something along the lines of the RJ having about two seconds to react when they saw the Pilatus pull onto the runway. Quick thinking, there.

ATC_MacGyver MacGyver with the bears.

that's like saying "you can't a approve that transition because you dont know if that pilot is where he said he is."

DanielEtvs Trusted Member hank krakowskis

exactly. it would be nice if she could have gone above and beyond and immediatley smelled a rat and realized the pilot was wrong in the position report.... but it was still a pilot deviation. Say what you want about visibility but its not HER fault that the pilot taxied way way out of the way and stopped on an active runway. to be honest i would fully EXPECT someone to lose their cool in that situation. its not a very cool situation. you have to control the frequency and the situation as the controller. ATC is supposed to be a rundandant system that is obviously prone to human error.... if there wasnt at least one more set of eyes and ears to help this controller figure out what was going on in a radidly changing and complex IFR situation than that is managements fault. obviously they were not working under ideal conditions and unknowing that the pilot who did not comply with its taxi instructions was also misreporting where they NOW were. It would sound nice and neat and clean on the tapes but there is no rule that you have to be "nice" to pilots, in fact sometimes thats not possible. At the end of the day the buck stops with you and YOU hav e to control your traffic, the pilots will walk all over you if they hear weakness. that being said .... obviously she was nut fully 100% situationally aware and the pilot who listended up and refused to take off saved the day. if you wanna read an ATC situation that will make your stomach turn look up the Tenerife disaster.... though im sure most of you already have.

as for the CLT situation thats 180 degrees different... the controller bizarrely cleared one to position and hold and the the Bluestreak to take off immediatley in the next clearance, then even when realized it froze up and didnt even give a traffic alert or offer alternate instructions. it makes me sick to listen to.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Don't forget that probably 10 years or so ago, something very similar occured at SRQ (Bradention Beach FL) where I believe the pilots of both cessnas died.

I'm not going to say that the controller at CLT didn't screw the pooch, but where was the cab supervisor or cab coordinator that is supposed to help watch out for errors like this, where was ASDE (or whatever they are using now) at that should had warned the controller that the runway was occupied and that she was making a serious error?.

Does CLT have a policy that Ground tells Local when an aircraft is at an intersection, was the strip marked, did she mis-identify an aircraft holding short at full length, etc.

There is always several things that failed to happen that result in any serious error. This is a lesson for all of us to not become complacent, not to let our guard down, and to keep our scan going to help prevent errors like this.