Denver Center vs Denver TRACON vs Denver Tower

DairyCreamer Senior Member Elsewhere

Know that D01 changed hands in early July when the previous ATM retired.

~Nate

Matty13 Senior Member

Did not know. Allow me to rephrase: The ATM should have been fired. I hope he was forced to retire.

DairyCreamer Senior Member Elsewhere

Just because you really really believe you can be a controller doesn't mean you're going to make it. If you don't worry about failing at least some, you're going to find yourself lacking that little bit of paranoia that keeps you studying, pushing, and working as hard as you can to be the absolute best. Trust me, you can't just beam a confident smile at the scope and expect aircraft to pry themselves apart (save maybe TCAS, but then it's too late).

The NATCA rep there has stated to me that overall, from all sources (OTS, CTI, VRA, CPC-IT, etc.) that D01 has a 60% success rate. Training is a rough ride, confident or not.

~Nate

PS - I'm trying to transfer there, so, don't think I'm hating on D01. I want to be there.

Ummmm Newcomer

Matty13, making assumptions is not a wise thing to do. I suggest you do some research and get your facts straight before posting. On another note, in some way shape or form, every controller at some point was OTS. You have to start somewhere. Not one person goes into a facility knowing how to work traffic; it takes time and training be it a level 12 or a level 5.

Matty13 Senior Member

Well Ummmm, why don't you set me straight. What part of my post was erroneous?

5 MIT at TOMSN, SAYGE, DANDD and POWDR and 20 MIT at RAMMS, LANDR, QUAIL and LARKS. Didn't used ta be this way. Used to be 5 MIT, all gates. We didn't used to have to meter on clear days. We didn't have ground stops every morning.

Before 2006 > after 2006.

Sure, every controller starts somewhere. Busier TRACONs are not equipped or prepared for total n00bs, and neither are they particularly interested in training them. You used to have to get a facility rating or two under your belt before you went to an 11 or 12 terminal. Centers have been training new hires forever, and have training programs designed to break in those who are "starting somewhere".

And I happen to know a low-level terminal CPC that washed out of a slow area in a level 10 that got picked up in the 2007 D01 bid.

How long have you been at D01?

slater Junior Member Earth

Do you have any info on any new hires for D01? If so, can you share? I applied to COLORADO in hopes of D01. I am Facility Rated VRA - REINST waiting to hear the word for this panel on D01. I would be honored to go to D01. A challenge is the way to be a true controller I believe. If you get bored with your job, you can get complacent. We all know what happens there. ... ughhh did you point him out?... "NO" --- Oh sh|t!

Ummmm Newcomer

What part? Where should I start? How about all of it. You obviously know nothing about AAR's or terminal rules/procedures and what it takes to get the acft where they need to be. As far as staffing goes, you bring in what you can when you are as short as we have been and train them. If they wash, you move on and get another. Not only new hires have washed out. Controllers with "a facility rating or two" as you put it have washed out as well. So, before you continue to make erroneous statements, research the facts instead of basing them on heresay. Frankly, visitors from ZDV have are quite impressed with the overall operation and what it takes to get things done.

Matty13 Senior Member

Ummmm, I've waited a while for you to reply, and that's what you bring me? "What part? Where should I start? How about all of it."

How about challenging me charge by charge. I'll help.

Charge one: "We've had 30 miles in trail when there was vis of 6FU, no ceiling. Planes getting vectored saying they can see the airport from 60 miles away." Are you saying it didn't happen? Are you saying that you can't possibly keep a 90 rate going at the airport with the most concrete in the country? Sub-charge: "Planes getting vectored saying they can see the airport from 60 miles away" Do you think this didn't happen? That I'm just lying to you?

Two: "...the ATM fucked up and hired a bunch of OTS's thinking anybody can do this job." Now, I will admit that I can't possibly know what any individual was thinking, but it sounds like you don't think the previous ATM fucked up. Allow me to add to the charge: In 2004-2006, after a green-book extension and during heated "negotiations" which led to the IWRs, a significant portion of D01's workforce was becoming eligible to retire. Many did so. In 2007 D01 put out a bid for CPCs, then canceled it. A month later they put out another bid offering move money and a bonus. I know many controllers who put in for that bid and were not selected from level 10 and above facilities. I also know a controller who washed out of a level 10 facility who was picked up for D01. The common factor for all those denied a move to Denver TRACON? They all made a base pay of greater than $80,000. The ATM could have had people who worked busier traffic, but at least in one case he selected from slower towers that didn't have radar of their own.

Three: "The ATM should be fired" I guess I'm not the only one who thought that.

Four: "5 MIT at TOMSN, SAYGE, DANDD and POWDR and 20 MIT at RAMMS, LANDR, QUAIL and LARKS. Didn't used ta be this way. Used to be 5 MIT, all gates. We didn't used to have to meter on clear days. We didn't have ground stops every morning." To add: a few years ago D01 took all ZDV could give and asked for more. 5.5 in trail at all eight gates plus tower en-route from BRK. Now the D01 TMU wants simultaneous metering AND 5/20 almost every day. The arrival rate seldom gets over 90, when it used to reach 160. Did DEN lose half of its runways? Does D01 suddenly need to use six miles lateral separation for everybody? Is it perpetually foggy at DEN?

Five: A new charge- D01 shuts off ZDV (no more DEN arrivals, go into hold) in order to change the runway configuration. A by-product of the former ATM's brilliant idea to train their new controllers on either arrivals or departures, but not both.

And now, counter-point.

"You obviously know nothing about AAR's or terminal rules/procedures and what it takes to get the acft where they need to be." I've worked Tower, TRACON, and ARTCC. I don't know what you think I know, but your ignorance is becoming more apparent. I know what the AAR's were in 2004-2008, and what they became in early 2009. Perhaps you should do some "research".

"As far as staffing goes, you bring in what you can when you are as short as we have been and train them. If they wash, you move on and get another. Not only new hires have washed out. Controllers with 'a facility rating or two' as you put it have washed out as well." Yes you bring in what you can, but hopefully you select people who have given some indication that they can do the job. If you select people who've washed out of slower facilities, you are ignoring or underestimating the importance of that particular datum. Either way, it's a failure. I'm curious how many of your controllers "with a facility or two" -that you referred to as washing out- have some experience in washing out at other facilities.

"...Research the facts instead of basing them on heresay [sic]." I've been giving you opportunities to post "the facts". All I get is "You don't know what your talking about," without any substantiation. Either give us all the straight dope, or point us in a direction where we can learn where I've erred.

And frankly, impressing a bunch of developmental controllers who have yet to sit at a scope is hardly a noteworthy feat.

I have enumerated and expounded upon my points, will you please do me the courtesy of countering them one by one? Please, actually show why you think I'm wrong, or give your version.

I wonder if you are either the deposed ATM or a current supervisor at D01. I suspect you won't say, and that's understandable. It's also possible that you are a trainee or recent CPC at D01 who thinks that you and your fellow new-CPC's are doing a stellar job. If that's the case, I must inform you that the job D01 is doing now would (and probably does) make your predecessors cringe. Traffic is unnecessarily slowed around the country to accommodate the weakened ATC force at D01.

dotcomgirl Rookie

I don't have time to respond to each of your points right now Matty, but really?... "weakened ATC force at D01"? Got one sentence for ya... "Proceed direct SAYGE, join the arrival". Way to go ZDV on THAT one. Oh, and a week later... they did almost the exact same screw up at QUAIL. There are more deals at the center right now than ever.

ATC_MacGyver MacGyver with the bears.

omg omg omg i LOVE this.