Denver Center vs Denver TRACON vs Denver Tower

Matty13 Senior Member

I can't argue that ZDV hasn't fucked up, but in that instance he could have taken one of the planes a little right to LANDR, but didn't. Why? he didn't want to try to get 20 MIT with anyone else on the LANDR5. [In his defense, limited though it must be, the controller in question said he meant to clear the guy direct FQF. Take that for what it's worth.] I didn't see the QUAIL snafu, but there was no deal there.

Why do you think there are more deals at ZDV than ever? Could it have anything to do with them busting their asses to accommodate the reduced arrival rates for D01? In a word, yes.

There is also the matter of the center going from five to six areas, and the northeast arrival gate changed hands from area 2 to area 5. Area 5 had previously been known as the retirement area, and only two controllers were able to transfer to area five when 12 others transferred or were forced from area 2 to area 6. So the 20-year CPCs in area five who had never before sequenced an arrival rush succeeded in keeping five miles for a while, but traffic's been picking back up and D01's been slowing down. Seven of ZDV's 2009 OE's occurred in sectors 15 and 16. I'll see what I can find about how many of the deals were in sectors 14/13, 25/26, and 28/27.

I don't know how many deals D01 had in the 2009, but it's dropped off since ZDV started spoonfeeding them.

ZDV has some weak controllers, just like any other facility. Nationwide, they're collectively getting weaker as new hires replace veterans and veterans near retirement. D01 has been hit especially hard by this.

And finally, your tu quoque argument is fallacious. Just because there are a pair of weaksticks on display at ZDV does not mean that D01 is not weak.

At least three other centers are feeding ZDV 20 MIT on DEN arrivals, which is the unnecessary slowing I refer to. I happen to know some ZDV controllers who ask TMU to lift these restrictions, and every time TMU refuses.

Let me be clear, my beef is not with any controller, it's with the managers who's ignorance and shortsighteness let things get to this point.

D01 should soon be ready for solid food, while ZDV is losing its teeth.

finnicky7 Newcomer

How about this Matty; Why don't you try lining up your arrivals to DEN! Just like every other Center in the f*&kin country, why should D01 work their asses off so you can be hack. WE are tired of your stack jobs, 500kt hand-offs, 10,000ft too high, handoffs 5nm inside the boundary, and the litany of other jacked up ATC procedure you produce daily!

Your last 2 deals/attempts were pure INCOMPOTENCE, plain and simple, you can say what you want, but turning a/c 180 degs back at fixes they passed, and then dicking up the H/O is scary.

Keep whine an I'll bring you another bag of diapers....

Matty13 Senior Member

Listen junior, they weren't my deals. And I know you can't handle the first guy at 500kts, or the occasional stack. That's something your predecessors did, and did well. They would call the center and initiate a stack on occasion.

What's scary is the number of deals D01 had in January 09. Now that won't be a problem with the slow drip.

Matty13 Senior Member

Yeah, you'll love it when the TRACON strategically places heavies to slow the departure rate.

finnicky7 Newcomer

LOL, This is the DUMBEST posts ever! What on earth does this mean? You do know that the tower is the one who releases the A/C in that order, right? And just how would a heavy make any difference to you anyways? You still need 5nm....Now I know you are a ratheon troll. Maybe when you work real airplanes for a while we can talk. Oh, and just so you know I've been a CPC for longer than you probably have had a drivers license.

Matty13 Senior Member

Follow me here- heavy arrival, then a two minute non-waiverable wait for wake turbulence for the departure. Never worked for Ratheon, but I've worked tower, approach and center. How many of these have you worked? I guess I gave you too much credit, thinking you intentionally place heavies (given your ignorance of chapter 3). I talked to my first airplane in 95. Wanna talk, or just keep puking on your keyboard?

Here is the point I've had all along: D01 used to be able to do it, they had a huge turnover during the IWR's, now they can't do it. Dispute that.

dotcomgirl Rookie

Matty,

At least don't generalize it like that. Yes, we have a ton of new trainees at D01, some of which could probably never have worked arrivals in under the old way (before all the restrictions got put on). But not everyone at the tracon completely sucks. Props to you guys for having to work harder now, I'll give you that. Personally, I miss the old way, when I actually got to sequence and fix the major messes we got at Ramms/Tomsn. It was fun. You call me to appreq props over Quail or two jets 5 in trail at Larks an I'll approve it anytime. It gives me something to do. And I'll work with no speeds on any day of the week. Just don't put down all the controllers over here. It wasn't our choice to screw you guys over and not ALL of us still complain about you Center guys. And trust me, we know our TMUs need some work. We hate the ridiculous runway changes in the middle of a rush as much as you.

Matty13 Senior Member

DCG, I'm sorry to offend. I meant to implicate the previous ATM's poor decision-making, not the work of the controllers. I've heard good things about your new ATM, I hope they pan out. Of course not every D01 controller sucks, just like we talked about the ZDV controllers earlier. And I think that the flow restrictions in place since 2/09 limit the junior controllers' ability to improve their skills, both at the TRACON and the center.

ZDV isn't working much harder, it's ZMP, ZKC, ZAB, and ZLC that are getting 15-20 MIT. And the planes are given routes that take them way out of their way just to put them on the primary STAR for each corner.

Here's part of the problem, agency-wide: Good controllers like taking messes of planes and straightening them out. The weaker controllers don't dig it as much, and some of these move into management. They eventually get promoted high enough to make some decisions about LOAs and SOPs. They see what the stronger controllers are doing on the floor, and they are scared of it. It's something the manager could never do, so they institute rules to make it easier. Things are now easier by rule, so the strong controllers get let proficient. Then developmentals never see the busy traffic, and never get as strong as the previous controllers. Expectations continually lowered, the work dumbed-down, never to increase in complexity- precisely counter to the stated goals of NextGen....

But back to what we're talking about. I see how what I was writing could offend the controllers involved, and for that I am sorry. I get mad at those in my own facility who enjoy a lighter workload.

JoeyG5639 Newcomer Las Vegas

I got a TOL for CO. I enjoyed reading this thread. My fingers are crossed for D01. I wish they would just tell me where in CO I'm being looked at for.

fireicy Newcomer

Wow, yeah.. I agree with you! I can't believe I am still reading this thread! Hoping that it will get back on the real subject of the facility comparison I guess. I work at N90 and this all sounds like the same bunch of BS I hear every day, when will people start actually doing something to fix the problem rather than complain to the world about it?! Can we please get back to the point? I'm waiting on a transfer to Den Tracon myself, is there any useful information on here regarding something real?