I Disappear When You Log In - Register

 

I Disappear When You Log In - Register

^^ The Advertisements above disappear once you log in. Not a member? Register Now, it's free! ^^
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 29
  1. #1
    ATC_MacGyver's Avatar
    MacGyver

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    with the bears.
    Posts
    609

    Left downwind vs. Left closed

    Ok. The entire time i was in the navy. "left downwind approved" or "enter left downwind" was the way to instruct an aircraft on the upwind to enter the downwind.

    we used the term "left closed" as a preventative control method.

    "tower, VVLL23 request downwind."
    "LL23, left closed traffic approved, report the 180 (base) with the gear each pass."

    this told the pilot he could turn downwind with out permission, he would call the tower at the baseleg and we would give him his clearance... then he would do his approach, and turn downwind at his discretion. we actually had a rule at our facility that we could have 4 (maybe it was 6) a/c operating in "left closed." we just told each one who to follow, and that was it. they turned downwind at their own discretion.

    now, when we would get airforce airplanes in our pattern, they didnt understand this. i had to spell it out to them every time. "left closed" to them, was "left downwind."

    and where i'm working at now, it's the same way. (i work at an army tower as a civilian contractor.) they all use the term left closed to tell an aircraft left downwind.

    is "left closed" actually defined anywhere?
    join the union or else!!!

  2. #2
    atcguruaf's Avatar
    Rico Suave

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Right here
    Posts
    1,377

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    CLOSED TRAFFIC- Successive operations involving takeoffs and landings or low approaches where the aircraft does not exit the traffic pattern.

    This reference is in the PC/G

    When I was in the Air Force, we sorta did it the way you did it in the Navy. But the way we'd do it:

    "Tower, Dagger1, 5 mile final, Runway 36L, touch and go"

    "Dagger1, Tower, Runway 36L cleared touch and go"

    Once the touch and go was completed,

    "Dagger1, request closed traffic"

    "Dagger1, left closed traffic approved"

    (the pilot would automatically report base each time)

    With each "base" report, we'd issue a clearance. Eventually, the pilot would say (once on the go) "request full stop". To which we'd just say roger.

    Sometimes, we'd get pilots requesting closed traffic each time. We'd either say roger, or educate them.

    Sometimes we might say "make left traffic", but we'd never say "enter left downwind". The reason being is that when you look up phraseology and pattern entry, "enter left downwind" is not in there.

  3. #3
    atcguruaf's Avatar
    Rico Suave

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Right here
    Posts
    1,377

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    guess my major point being that yes, you are correct. Given that closed traffic is defined as SUCCESSIVE operations. I don't know why they would keep requesting that on the go.

  4. #4
    Newcomer

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Texas Hill Country
    Posts
    1

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    Refer to 7110.65S, para 3-10-11: "Approve/dissapprove requests to remain in closed traffic for successive operations subject to local traffic conditions." Phraseology- LEFT CLOSED TRAFFIC APPROVED etc. One "LEFT CLOSED TRAFFIC APPROVED" is adequate for continuing closed traffic.

  5. #5
    MikeATC's Avatar
    Retired FAA, NATCA Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Nashville TN
    Posts
    1,231

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    You need to remember that "LEFT TRAFFIC" is the standard, so baring other instructions 99% of pilots (civil, commercial) will enter left traffic, except for those few who don't get it. I've seen controllers not issue "enter right downwind or right base to traffic" and have an arrival cross over the departure corridor and enter left traffic and almost create an ugly incident, which would had been the controllers fault.

    As to telling a pilot where to enter the pattern, I always instruct them to enter the dowwind, base, or straight in (the way I was taught over 25 years ago).

    Like ATC I'm working as a contractor at an army base in Afghanistan, let me tell you that foreign pilots don't have a clue about traffic patterns. Army pilots don't understand that being cleared for the option means you don't have to request takeoff clearance every single time when they are in the pattern, as well as a few other basic pattern terms.

    I've been here over 5 months and still can't figure out why Army Helicopters fly patterns wider than a B52 pattern, I've been tempted to tell a few to "Please keep your pattern within the confines of Afghanistan", I've literally lost sight of a few because of their bizzare patterns.

  6. #6
    Trusted Contributor

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    BNA
    Posts
    781

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    left/right closed traffic approved has always been the norm for me at LRAFB and Ali. Enter left/right downwind is soemthing ive always said to an A/C coming in from oppsite direction. when you have closed traffic to the right, tell them to enter left downind.

  7. #7
    Junior Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    90

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    At McConnell afb we always said 'left closed traffic approved'! You dont have to say 'report base' or 'with the gears locked' because the pilot will report it without being told!

    When you tell a pilot to enter left downwind its when they are visually coming to the airport and you need them in a certain spot in the pattern because of traffic

  8. #8
    ATC_MacGyver's Avatar
    MacGyver

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    with the bears.
    Posts
    609

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    Quote Originally Posted by stasi2002 View Post
    At McConnell afb we always said 'left closed traffic approved'! You dont have to say 'report base' or 'with the gears locked' because the pilot will report it without being told!

    When you tell a pilot to enter left downwind its when they are visually coming to the airport and you need them in a certain spot in the pattern because of traffic
    when you say left closed traffic approved, what are you approving him to do? just turn downwind that pass? and the after the touch and go he will ask you again for "left closed?"
    join the union or else!!!

  9. #9
    Trusted Contributor

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    BNA
    Posts
    781

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    Quote Originally Posted by ATC_MacGyver View Post
    when you say left closed traffic approved, what are you approving him to do? just turn downwind that pass? and the after the touch and go he will ask you again for "left closed?"

    exactly. this is how it is worked at non-fighter bases. fighter and non-fighter are two completely different worlds.

  10. #10
    ATC_MacGyver's Avatar
    MacGyver

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    with the bears.
    Posts
    609

    Re: Left downwind vs. Left closed

    Quote Originally Posted by mikecoyne34 View Post
    exactly. this is how it is worked at non-fighter bases. fighter and non-fighter are two completely different worlds.
    so can you reference something that says to do it this way?

    the airforce bubba that works here, used "left closed approved" as a substitute for "left downwind approved."

    he worked at hill afb... which is a fighter base.
    join the union or else!!!

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •