I Disappear When You Log In - Register

 

I Disappear When You Log In - Register

^^ The Advertisements above disappear once you log in. Not a member? Register Now, it's free! ^^
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 86
  1. #1
    Rookie

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    62

    Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    So here is something that nobody can seem to agree on at the two facilities I've been.

    Here we are in our class C tower. We have two aircraft...a small and a large. The large is on a 5 mile final. The small is somewhere on a base leg (no they won't hit). We get the small to see the large and he's #2 and follows it in. The large crosses the threshold and the small is on a 2 mile final. Have we done wrong? A small behind a large requires 4 miles. Some argue you need 4 miles...even guys on the downwind following others on final (which I disagree with). They recite the .65 section for that requirement (under "Radar") Some state the obvious "We are in a tower! It's a radar requirement." Some fire back "well, we do have certified radar in the tower." It's a never ending circle lets just say.

    So the question...is the wake turbulence radar separation the towers responsibility? Is it just for guys on final? What's the deal?

  2. #2
    CagedCabMonkey's Avatar
    Junior Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    98

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Quote Originally Posted by EchoBravo View Post
    So here is something that nobody can seem to agree on at the two facilities I've been.

    Here we are in our class C tower. We have two aircraft...a small and a large. The large is on a 5 mile final. The small is somewhere on a base leg (no they won't hit). We get the small to see the large and he's #2 and follows it in. The large crosses the threshold and the small is on a 2 mile final. Have we done wrong? A small behind a large requires 4 miles. Some argue you need 4 miles...even guys on the downwind following others on final (which I disagree with). They recite the .65 section for that requirement (under "Radar") Some state the obvious "We are in a tower! It's a radar requirement." Some fire back "well, we do have certified radar in the tower." It's a never ending circle lets just say.

    So the question...is the wake turbulence radar separation the towers responsibility? Is it just for guys on final? What's the deal?
    Does the rule in the 7110.65 say only the approach has to comply, or the tower is exempt from the rule?

    NO!

    If you have certified radar, then DEAL...

    This is why at towers with certified radar displays in the cab, your supposed to go to RTF BEFORE you get LC certified...

  3. #3
    Rookie

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    62

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Going to RTF for towers with radar is either not required or not complied with if it is required. When I was at an up/down facility...you check out in the tower THEN go to RTF. The facility I'm at now, nobody goes to RTF. My buddies at other towers didn't go to RTF either, unless those who were at an up/down...then they went to RTF...after they check out on LC.

    So I ask again...a small (on the downwind) reports large traffic to follow in sight, they turn behind them at their own leisure and follow them in well inside 4 miles. You'll find a lot of people disagreeing on whether that's good or not. Especially at an up/down.

  4. #4
    CagedCabMonkey's Avatar
    Junior Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    98

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Quote Originally Posted by EchoBravo View Post
    Going to RTF for towers with radar is either not required or not complied with if it is required. When I was at an up/down facility...you check out in the tower THEN go to RTF. The facility I'm at now, nobody goes to RTF. My buddies at other towers didn't go to RTF either, unless those who were at an up/down...then they went to RTF...after they check out on LC.

    So I ask again...a small (on the downwind) reports large traffic to follow in sight, they turn behind them at their own leisure and follow them in well inside 4 miles. You'll find a lot of people disagreeing on whether that's good or not. Especially at an up/down.
    If you use radar to separate aircraft, you are supposed to have gone to RTF first. Maybe you don't use radar in your tower to separate?

    Obviously your not using it to provide the required wake turbulence separation.

  5. #5
    Adam
    Unregistered

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Quote Originally Posted by EchoBravo View Post
    So here is something that nobody can seem to agree on at the two facilities I've been.

    Here we are in our class C tower. We have two aircraft...a small and a large. The large is on a 5 mile final. The small is somewhere on a base leg (no they won't hit). We get the small to see the large and he's #2 and follows it in. The large crosses the threshold and the small is on a 2 mile final. Have we done wrong? A small behind a large requires 4 miles. Some argue you need 4 miles...even guys on the downwind following others on final (which I disagree with). They recite the .65 section for that requirement (under "Radar") Some state the obvious "We are in a tower! It's a radar requirement." Some fire back "well, we do have certified radar in the tower." It's a never ending circle lets just say.

    So the question...is the wake turbulence radar separation the towers responsibility? Is it just for guys on final? What's the deal?
    You should tell the aircraft following the large to "maintain visual separation, caution wake turbulence," if you turn the aircraft's base leg unless you can provide appropriate radar separation. Even though you have a certified piece of radar equipment, you still have to know how to use it to provide separation. Both aircraft would have to be radar identified for starts.

    As a tower yes you can provide visual, but no you cannot provide visual for wake turbulence.

    Also, many people get the 4 mile rule wrong between a small following a large. It is actually 3 miles. The only time you have to have 4 miles is when the large aircraft is over the landing threshold. So you can have less than 4 miles all the way down until the point the large crosses the threshold, then you need at least 4.

  6. #6
    Adam
    Unregistered

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Quote Originally Posted by CagedCabMonkey View Post
    If you use radar to separate aircraft, you are supposed to have gone to RTF first. Maybe you don't use radar in your tower to separate?

    Obviously your not using it to provide the required wake turbulence separation.
    You don't have to go to RTF, I believe you just have to take the radar CBI and pass....maybe you don't even have to do that, you just have to be taught how to separate aircraft and prove to someone that you can do it.

  7. #7
    CagedCabMonkey's Avatar
    Junior Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    98

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Quote Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
    You don't have to go to RTF, I believe you just have to take the radar CBI and pass....maybe you don't even have to do that, you just have to be taught how to separate aircraft and prove to someone that you can do it.
    What about FAAO 3120.4, 2-11.f. ??

    f. Prior to certification on a radar position, ATCSs assigned to terminal radar facilities shall attend Course 50034, Terminal Basic Radar Training at the FAA Academy’s Radar Training Facility (RTF). Enrollment in the course will be limited to ATCSs assigned to or selected for a radar approach control facility who have not previously been radar certified at the CPC level in an FAA facility.


    IF LC is considered a radar position, and it should be if you are using radar to seperate, then you need to go to RTF...

  8. #8
    The Heatles's Avatar
    Loving Life

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Miami, FL
    Posts
    2,118

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    tell the small to maintain visual and issue a wake turbulence cautionary... its on him when he wants to base after that.

  9. #9
    Adam
    Unregistered

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Quote Originally Posted by CagedCabMonkey View Post
    What about FAAO 3120.4, 2-11.f. ??

    f. Prior to certification on a radar position, ATCSs assigned to terminal radar facilities shall attend Course 50034, Terminal Basic Radar Training at the FAA Academy?s Radar Training Facility (RTF). Enrollment in the course will be limited to ATCSs assigned to or selected for a radar approach control facility who have not previously been radar certified at the CPC level in an FAA facility.


    IF LC is considered a radar position, and it should be if you are using radar to seperate, then you need to go to RTF...
    I believe the RTF is the CBI course 50034...maybe certain facilities are allowed to just use the CBI 50034 in lieu of the academy....it states enrollment for the course is "limited to ATCSs assigned or selected for a radar approach control facility." I do not work at an approach control facility, i worked at a limited radar approach control facility. Maybe that is where they get around only doing CBI course 50034.

  10. #10
    Roddy_Piper's Avatar
    Resident Knucklehead

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Vegas baby
    Posts
    3,339

    Re: Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

    Quote Originally Posted by EchoBravo View Post
    So the question...is the wake turbulence radar separation the towers responsibility? Is it just for guys on final? What's the deal?
    your talking about the minima in 5-5-4-e correct? it says "separate aircraft operating directly behind, or directly behind and less than 1000 feet below, or FOLLOWING AN AIRCRAFT CONDUCTING AN INSTRUMENT APPROACH BY:"

    para 5-5-4-f then states "IN ADDITION TO PARA E". it does not say instead of para e. so para f is not a stand alone paragraph, it goes hand in hand with para e.

    so the bigger question is...is the small on an instrument approach (either IFR or practice VFR)? if NO, then the answer is NO. caution wake turbulence and move on with your day. 5-5-4 is a RADAR separation section. it is NOT a tower section. don't mix those two up.

    the local controller using a certified tower radar is not the same as applying RADAR separation. did u radar identify the aircraft and tell him radar contact? have you looked away from your tower radar for more than 15 seconds? cuz then you missed 3 sweeps of the radar and essentially LOST radar contact. how are you applying RADAR separation on a NON-RADAR aircraft because you did in fact just LOSE RADAR CONTACT.

    i could be dead wrong though. that's my story and that's how i apply it. i'm more than open to hearing the other side of the argument and will willingly change my mind and my control habits when proven wrong.

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. wake turbulence separation for touch-n-go
    By fatboy in forum FAA Rules - Regulations
    Replies: 160
    Last Post: 01-28-2012, 02:30 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-07-2009, 05:30 PM
  3. Boeing Hits Turbulence With Engineers And 787
    By Adam in forum In The News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-08-2008, 06:16 AM
  4. Another Wake Turbulence Question
    By yankeedoodle in forum FAA Rules - Regulations
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-04-2008, 02:00 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •