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  1. #11
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Roddy_Piper View Post
    note: visual separation cannot be used in lieu of wake turbulence separation. if you have a wake turbulence separation issue then the "center" or approach controller is still responsible for those miles unless the PILOT sees the bigger guy and accepts visual separation or is told to follow.
    That's a good point. I find I'm continually reminding our newer tower guys to keep wake turbulence rules in mind (eg. small following large) before initiating to the approach controller that we, the VFR tower, "can provide visual separation."

  2. #12
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    What is the intent of visual separation? Or why use it?
    Additionally, I have seen controllers state the phrase 'maintain visual separation" after giving a traffic calls to VRF ac, to a transition ac, to an IFR ac or VFR ac following another ac in the pattern. I have never understood the point of this, as VFR ac are to see and avoid anyway, and when the reason was given, "it takes the responsibilty off the controller if the ac hit another ac", just didn't make much sense. In a VFR tower environment, how is this applied? Thank you.
    Last edited by Boxcar65; 02-28-2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: further understanding

  3. #13
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    It allows for much better efficiency and higher traffic fllow by negating the need to apply some form of IFR distance, time, or altitude separation, which would cripple a terminal environment specifically. If visual separation weren't available, much of the nations moderate to busiest airports would grind to a crawl. There would be additional problems at lower en-route altitudes as well.

  4. #14
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Boxcar65 View Post
    What is the intent of visual separation? Or why use it?
    Additionally, I have seen controllers state the phrase 'maintain visual separation" after giving a traffic calls to VRF ac, to a transition ac, to an IFR ac or VFR ac following another ac in the pattern. I have never understood the point of this, as VFR ac are to see and avoid anyway, and when the reason was given, "it takes the responsibilty off the controller if the ac hit another ac", just didn't make much sense. In a VFR tower environment, how is this applied? Thank you.
    I'm of the opinion that there is no reason to tell a vfr aircraft in the tower pattern to maintain visual separation from anybody. There's no separation minimum to be maintained. If that were the case you'd have to issue it every time you issued a sequence. That would suck. I think the only references you'll find where you would/could use it are 3-9-6 & 3-10-3 Same Runway Separation where the succeeding a/c is a helicopter.

  5. #15
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by meanjoe View Post
    I'm of the opinion that there is no reason to tell a vfr aircraft in the tower pattern to maintain visual separation from anybody. There's no separation minimum to be maintained. If that were the case you'd have to issue it every time you issued a sequence. That would suck. I think the only references you'll find where you would/could use it are 3-9-6 & 3-10-3 Same Runway Separation where the succeeding a/c is a helicopter.
    I tell a small VFR in the pattern to maintain visual behind an arriving or departing large:

    3-9-7. WAKE TURBULENCE SEPARATION FOR INTERSECTION DEPARTURES
    b. 3. Successive touch-and-go and stop-and-go operations are conducted with a small aircraft following another small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft in the pattern, or a small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft departing the same runway, provided the pilot of the small aircraft is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding large aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the large aircraft.

  6. #16
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by vvatc View Post
    I tell a small VFR in the pattern to maintain visual behind an arriving or departing large:

    3-9-7. WAKE TURBULENCE SEPARATION FOR INTERSECTION DEPARTURES
    b. 3. Successive touch-and-go and stop-and-go operations are conducted with a small aircraft following another small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft in the pattern, or a small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft departing the same runway, provided the pilot of the small aircraft is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding large aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the large aircraft.
    Good call. I spoke too soon.

  7. #17
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    haha, yea. vv is rite.

    ill also do it if Ihave a fast guy behind a slower guy using runway sep. going in the same general direction. They radar doesnt need their sep. and can get the guy on course sooner.

    def. use it 4 wake turb.
    i wont say which airport, but someone recently got double digit OEs in an hour not doing this.

    There are many dif. times any ways you can use it in radar 2.

    HOWEVER!
    MAKE SURE YOU SAY THE ENTIRE PHRASE! DO NOT JUST SAY "maintain visual seperation"!
    Use the ENTIRE THING
    and
    MAKE SURE YOU GET AN AWKNOWLEDGEMENT FROM THE PILOT WITH CALLSIGN
    otherwise, guess what.......
    you will be filing an ATSAP after you lost seperation!

  8. #18
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    My point was just that if there's a minima to maintain, IE wake turbulence or helo's following somebody to the runway then you tell a pilot to maintain visual separation. having one vfr aircraft follow another and there's no wt considerations a simple instruction to follow, pass behind ect. is sufficient.

    I totally agree using it for wake turbulence is a correct application too.

    Jtime-can you explain your second sentence a little. Not sure I understand.

  9. #19
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by meanjoe View Post
    Jtime-can you explain your second sentence a little. Not sure I understand.
    Both ifr.

    citation departs rwy 34
    b737 rite behind him

    citation on course heading is 030
    737 heading is 035

    clear cit for takeoff on course



    just one example
    ask 737 if he has cit in site
    if he does,

    maintain vis sep from that blahblah clear for takeoff on course
    he can roll w 6000 and airborne.

    cit needs to be told traffic has you in site maintaining visual blah
    departure needs to know also, because then he doesnt need his 3 miles

  10. #20
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    Re: VFR Tower Vis Sep

    I'd say it depends on the type of citation. One of the things CH. 7 says to consider is aircraft characteristics/performance.

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