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  1. #1
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    Intersection Departure??

    INTERSECTION
    a. A point defined by any combination of courses,
    radials, or bearings of two or more navigational aids.
    b. Used to describe the point where two runways,
    a runway and a taxiway, or two taxiways cross or
    meet.
    INTERSECTION DEPARTURE- A departure from
    any runway intersection except the end of the runway.


    This is the 7110.65 description. This in mind, would you consider an aircraft taxied in front of the arresting gear, but not at a point where two runways, a runway and a taxiway, or two taxiways cross or meet, an intersection departure?

  2. #2
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    how far down is the arresting gear?

  3. #3
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    8000 foot rwy, lets say 2000 feet down is the arresting gear.

    Now according to the book definition i would say this isnt an intersection departure, but yes i would still apply wake turbulace as if it were. But does that give you a pass in the TIPH at intersection at night.... and can you alleaveate some intersection phrasologey?


    -pardon the spelling, not my strong point.

  4. #4
    atcguruaf's Avatar
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    If you put the aircraft in takeoff position, and he takes it upon himself to taxi down the runway, that's on him, not you. Same thing if you clear the aircraft for takeoff from full length - if he takes it upon himself to taxi down the runway past the arresting gear, that's on him.

    If you, however, as a controller, take any action to imply or initiate a takeoff from a point that is not the runway end, I would treat that as an intersection takeoff.

    For example, for WHATEVER reason, if you say "Rwy 36R, at 3 thousand feet, cleared for takeoff" (no, I don't know why you would say this, it's just hypothetical), then that, in my opinion, would be considered an intersection departure. If you just say "Rwy36R, cleared for takeoff..." you're good, same thing with TIPH.

    This is only my "interpretation". It makes sense to me and is how I would interpret the books. Your facility chief may have a different view.

    As far as wake turbulence is concerned, I would just give a cautionary. "N12345, caution wake turbulence, Heavy B747 departed, Rwy 36R, cleared for takeoff."

    I know it's "2 minutes" from the approach end, but this is for intersection departures. So if the 2 minutes has elapsed, clear the guy for takeoff, issue a cautionary. 3 minutes in my opinion would not apply since you're clearing the guy for takeoff from the approach end.

  5. #5
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    On a similar note, would you consider a small cleared for a low approach only as an intersection departure (for WT purposes) behind a large departing the same runway. Here's the situation: a C-172 is on an ILS approach (practice approach, but it doesn't matter), and a CRJ2 is departing in front of the arrival. I think I will have my 3 minutes, so I clear the CRJ2 for t/o. The C172 wants the option. Again, I'm pretty sure I'll have 3 minutes, so I clear the C172 for the option. I end up with 3+ minutes, so no worries, but my trainer asks me what I would do if I didn't have 3 minutes. I say I would give him a low approach. He says that a low approach is an intersection departure, but I cannot find it in the .65. What do you think? Is a low approach in any way an intersection departure?

  6. #6
    atcguruaf's Avatar
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    Quote Originally Posted by nbtbtz View Post
    On a similar note, would you consider a small cleared for a low approach only as an intersection departure (for WT purposes) behind a large departing the same runway. Here's the situation: a C-172 is on an ILS approach (practice approach, but it doesn't matter), and a CRJ2 is departing in front of the arrival. I think I will have my 3 minutes, so I clear the CRJ2 for t/o. The C172 wants the option. Again, I'm pretty sure I'll have 3 minutes, so I clear the C172 for the option. I end up with 3+ minutes, so no worries, but my trainer asks me what I would do if I didn't have 3 minutes. I say I would give him a low approach. He says that a low approach is an intersection departure, but I cannot find it in the .65. What do you think? Is a low approach in any way an intersection departure?
    Here's what I know: A low approach is considered a departure from the approach end. Normally, what you would do since the C172 wanted the option, is ensure visual separation, or say "Cessna 12345, unable touch and go, unable stop and go, all other options approved" if you didn't want to use visual separation or if the C172 could not get the RJ in sight. A touch and go and stop and go are the only thing considered intersection departures (references to follow).

    Is a low approach in any way an intersection departure?: No. It is a departure form the approach end.

    Here are the references:

    3-9-7 a4 NOTE:

    NOTE-
    Aircraft conducting touch-and-go and stop-and-go operations are considered to be departing from an intersection.

    (read the rest of 3-9-7 for visual separation rules)

    4-8-12 Low Approach and Touch and Go:

    Consider an aircraft cleared for a touch-and-go, low approach, or practice approach as an arriving aircraft until that aircraft touches down or crosses the landing threshold; thereafter, consider the aircraft as a departing aircraft.


    Given that a low approach will not touch the runway, it is to be considered a departure upon crossing the landing threshold. Not to mention, when you cross-reference it, it says in 3-9-7 a4 only that a touch and go or stop and go are to be considered intersection departures. Given this information in both references, a low approach is to be considered a departure from the approach end.

    My advice: If you bring this information to light, be VERY tactful and don't do it while you're working position. Do what your trainer(s) want(s), then you can start doing it the right way once you get checked out.

  7. #7
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    For example, for WHATEVER reason, if you say "Rwy 36R, at 3 thousand feet, cleared for takeoff" (no, I don't know why you would say this, it's just hypothetical), then that, in my opinion, would be considered an intersection departure. If you just say "Rwy36R, cleared for takeoff..." you're good, same thing with TIPH.
    Adding the runway length in with the takeoff clearance (something that I have done before) doesn't make it an intersection departure, and there is absolutely nothing different as far as wake turbulence or TIPH is concerned if you give the runway length or not with the takeoff clearance.

    If you clear the aircraft for takeoff from full length, and he taxis down the runway 1000' before putting the coals to the engine, you are perfectly legal and if the plane crashes, you're covered (as long as the takeoff clearance was done correctly in the first place).

    On the other hand, if you clear an aircraft for takeoff and imply that he can/should taxi more than 500' down the runway before starting his takeoff roll, you're asking for trouble if there is a wake turbulence issue. As far as TIPH at an intersection at night goes, just don't do it. Put him in position full length. If he taxis down the runway 500 feet before stopping, that's not your problem.

    As far as the low approach intersection departure, ATCguru is right on . . . it's right there in black and white that a touch-and-go or stop-and-go is an intersection departure. Since a low approach is a departure once it crosses the threshold, and the wake turbulence issue is only from intersections more than 500' from the approach end, you can do low approaches behind departing large aircraft all day.

    Going further, is there any reason that a small touch-and-go that touches down within the first 500' of runway needs to be 3 mins (or visual) behind a departing large aircraft? Since he's considered a departure from the point he touches down, and wake turbulence only applies to intersections more than 500' down the runway, I think you can do it legally.

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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    Thanks guys, those answers satisfy me.

  9. #9
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    Quote Originally Posted by ATCinWI View Post

    Going further, is there any reason that a small touch-and-go that touches down within the first 500' of runway needs to be 3 mins (or visual) behind a departing large aircraft? Since he's considered a departure from the point he touches down, and wake turbulence only applies to intersections more than 500' down the runway, I think you can do it legally.
    I think since there's no way to guarantee that the small will touch down w/i the first 500 ft of the runway, or that he will rotate before the large's rotation point, you have to apply the 3 minutes. I'm also guessing that's the reason for the visual separation: so the small can watch the large's rotation point and rotate prior to that.

  10. #10
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    Re: Intersection Departure??

    Where the small rotates is irrelevant, but yes, it's not practical to use operationally and the way I've been doing it the last several years (vis sep or 3 mins) has been working fine. But, it would create an interesting defense in a wake turbulence accident investigation.

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