Run-em tight

Matty13 Senior Member

Just read the Potomac Current and Undertow Feb 15th post The Potomac Current and Undertow

One of the blog's points is that in order for nextgen to work, controllers will need to get closer to minimum separation. After years of punishing controllers, the FAA wants to switch tacks and have everyone scrape the bubble.

I wonder what the FAA will do to create incentive to run at the minimums. Because though I try to keep em tight, most folks that I work with vector for extra spacing (some ridiculously so).

Radium Epic Member SoCal Tracon

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt it say 2.5nm sep... ALLOWING unlimited compression inside 5NM...

so bust em in super tight, and so what if it compresses a lil bit? They can land 1 mile apart no prob?

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Radium, to run down to 2.5 on final you have to have a study done that documents runway occupancy times, otherwise only approved seperation can be used.

As to running at minimums, as long as you do everything right, and you always leave an out (just in case) then no problem. This was always a complaint of my supe because if I could run 3 between on final I would be at 3.5 maybe 4 miles tops between and she didn't like that (yes she was one of them that ran 6 to 10 between arrivals on final).

But I would not trust the FAA to not start burning controllers for having errors on final due to compression.

Matty13 Senior Member

It's not just terminal, enrouters that need five often vector for 20. It chaps my ass every time I see a plane get turned that was already 10 miles behind its "traffic".

Mike's right, reducing spacing on final only works if you can clear the runway quicker. Otherwise, they probably could change same runway separation. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, though. Sounds like your sup did the classic Get-Promoted-Cause-You're-Scared move. No wonder our workplace is ranked #216.

SnowAviation Senior Member Escondido, CA

Changing the separation standards and running them tighter
would work as long as they figure out a way to get them off
the runway in a timely manner, for single runway operations
that would also mean no departures in that time frame.

New Airport schedule: 7am to 8am arrivals only, 8am to 9am
departures only, and so on.

The Airlines would scream....on the other hand, you'd never miss a connection.

Matty13 Senior Member

The hub system is kinda killing everybody's on-time performance. If planes ran like buses or trains (here's your route, try to keep to the schedule) congestion would be pretty well relieved. But the airlines want all their planes at the same airport at the same time. Not that I mind, that makes it funner.

Changing the separation standards is fine, but it seems like the plan for Nextgen is to keep planes closer to the minimums. There are controllers who will refuse or at least drag their feet.

That scheduling idea of yours would move lots of planes quickly, but you'd better have a whole lot of gates. And what if a plane is early? He's fucked. Cleared to outer marker, hold as published....

SnowAviation Senior Member Escondido, CA

The scheduling idea was clearly a joke but if you look at
absolutes, and us controllers do that a lot, short of more
runways I don't see how we can run much more traffic than
has already been tried. Just about every airport has been
maxed out at on time or another so we know what we can
do with the runways we have. Arrivals have to land and
departures need to depart so the demand for runway space
will always be a juggling act.

The joke is, that with the traffic like we have nowadays,
anything they do will seem like an improvement.

Increasing capacity with NextGen, is a joke, a ruse, sure
ADS-B will help oceanic capacity and fix areas of no radar
coverage and the onboard datalink will streamline the
transmitting of revised clearances and weather, but if you
read all the long term plans for NextGen, the stated goal
is to transition controllers from controlling to monitoring.

They want the airlines to be able to take off then have the
computer system determine the most fuel effecient route
and altitude based on load, wind, weather, etc. Once the
airplane gets airborne the computers will take over and go
into conflict management mode. Some supercomputer will
decide who goes in whatever order and then tell the pilots
what optimized route and altitude to fly to the destination.

It sounds great on paper but in reality it just wont work in
fully automated mode in very many environments. Like
congested high density metropolitan areas, like where airports
are located.

In the long term NextGen will be bad for controllers, will it be good
for the system as a whole? We shall see...someday...maybe.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

See here for effects of computer based automated separation.

9 Killed, 76 Injured in Deadliest Disaster in Metro History|ABC 7 News


We want those dumb humans making any mistakes.

GolfJuliet F*** Terrorism

You can't replace people, I don't care what kind of supercomputer you have.

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

Heh. By omitting one crucial word, your post went from good to awesome.