NATCA response to overtime question

RdRunnr12 Site Editor

I'll preface this post of displeasure with the fact that I'm still waiting for a OKC class date, but I just had to let everyone know my concerns regarding a recent post on the ask NATCA section.
More than 40hrs/week

The bolded part of this statement is just ridiculous. If you are wrong in requesting OT, you do not deserve it and should forfeit any award granted. It does not matter how well you argued. It seems that attitudes like this from FAC reps are a major reason management has the hostility everyone says that they do. This was posted by a high ranking NATCA figure so he must obviously condone this type of unethical practice.

I have never been a pro union guy but was considering it until I saw this. OT is not the only time when additional monies are argued and this leaves me wondering how much of our tax dollars are being spent on undeserving people taking advantage of a system. Again, I know I'm new, but I really don't see how anyone can justify what is quoted above.

GeorgeM Trusted Member CO

I took the answer as meaning he might not have been literally right, but was morally right and convinced management with that argument.

RdRunnr12 Site Editor

There shouldn't be gray area between moral and literal. Either you worked the hours or you didn't. If anything, he's morally wrong in accepting any such award and if he new he was wrong prior to the argument (which I suspect is the case a lot of times), then someone needs to check their ethical radar.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

Those are not Doug Church's words they are taken from the NATCA BBS verbatim he was just reposting someone else's post from there. He said nothing in his post which implies he condones anything. It was a response to that question by someone, he did not censor it.

RdRunnr12 Site Editor

Would you post those words in a public forum if you didn't agree with the ethics behind them? The part that has me concerned was an afterthought to the original answer. It could have been edited to retain it's integrity but it wasn't and it lost it completely.

This is not a jab at Doug, he's provided some great info on this site. I just don't feel like I can support an organization that knowingly accepts this type of behavior.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

FYI
I added additional commentary to my post in an edit.

He was copying and pasting it isn't his position to censor anything. Whether or not this person was ethical in his argument for OT is immaterial it still happened and was posted as an example/story. No one is condoning anything. In fact if anything it proves the FAA's inherit stupidity in that they believed an argument for OT when there wasn't a entitlement for it.

That same stupidity is why I see a need to be part of NATCA despite the fact I have never been overly pro-union myself. NATCA is there to help you in case the FAA decides to use it's stupidity on you.

Radium Epic Member

ya RdRunner, if you want change you can believe in, you gotta run for office yo!
Plus I'm sure that was from whitebook era, so people were fighting for dimes to pay the rent (that they thought they could afford b4 the cut)

RdRunnr12 Site Editor

No offense, but that was one of the worst logical fallacies I've ever seen. As a person of authority, Mr. Church could/should have edited that post. Not only should the award be forfeited, if an official knowingly argues and wins unearned wages, it is fraud.

Shifting a NATCA officials (the person Doug quoted) lack of integrity to the FAA's supposed stupidity is a classic two wrongs make a right fallacy. The FAA's stupidity should not play any role in any person collecting more money than they deserve. If this type of behavior and frivolous grievences weren't so frequent, maybe the FAA management wouldn't be so "stupid" all the time.

I'm not going to continue a debate in this. As I previously stated, as an ethical person, I can't support a Union that knowingly defrauds the government and more importantly, the American people.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

Talk about illogical fallacies

Hold your horses there big guy. The one who posted that WAS NOT A NATCA OFFICIAL it was a NATCA member on the member's only BBS. The Union had nothing to do with this guy's agreeably unethical behavior(IMO).

You are making assumptions that NATCA had a part in this on a national level, they didn't. This was done on the local level by one person.

If you are so concerned with your ethics you might as well not become a government employee because obviously associating with people who look for hookers during government trips (see the FLM christmas thread) would hurt your moral standing.

Sounds to me like you are looking for an excuse to not join NATCA, fine it is your choice so be it, but to act like this one person's statement is end-all-be-all evidence of NATCA's goal to "defraud the government and the American people" is ludicrous and plain stupid.

RdRunnr12 Site Editor

I'm not saying that NATCA has a part in this on a national level. Nor am I saying that defrauding the government is their goal. I'm saying that this is happening and they aren't doing anything to prevent it on the national level. Isn't it NATCA fac reps that fight for these types of things? Are they not considered officials? Should they be able to retain their position if they are breaking rules/acting unethically?

Do I have evidence to prove this isn't an isolated case? No. My ultimate decision will be made once I'm in my facility and experience the day to day activities of both management and union officials.