Air Force and Army Controllers Help a brother out

SSgt Young StuckMic Marine Corps Liaison California

Hey guys,

I am currently working on a project to try and figure out why out revocation numbers are so high in the Marine Corps and how we can alleviate the problem. Better screening, harder testing, etc... If anyone from these two branches could hook me up with a phone number or email of someone that tracks revocation numbers for your services that would be super. Thanks in advance.

SSgt Young USMC

Brew Junior Member

Maybe you guys are doing something right. In other branches I have seen people get hidden in the office or some other BS admin gig. Bill is a nice guy / Sally is a nice girl, let's hook them up type crap. Seeing E-6's with 10 years that can't control a bowel movement should never happen. The other thing that comes to mind is: How many people join the USMC to control aircraft? I saw a lot of dudes that were pissed they weren't running around with painted faces and a stream of hot brass in trail. Maybe it's different these days with the realities of OIF/OEF although I've heard the young are still hungry as always. With the demands of the current ops tempo it's good to see they are still washing out those that need it ( if thats' what the washout rate is about ) instead of passing them to fill billets.

SSgt Young StuckMic Marine Corps Liaison California

While you may be right we are a critical job. We have around 400 people and around a 45% washout rate. Of those 400 people i know pretty much all of them that have some sort of worth while qualification. We are looking to screen people before they even go to school or are even given the job. That way we have a better process of getting people that can actually control. The Navy has three to four times as many people and have an 11% washout rate. Here's where the jane is a nice lady or john is a good guy and we don't want to ruin their career comes in. I know all of you Navy folk are going to get all pissy but think about it. You know its true and even if you don't then it doesn't matter because i've been told as much by a few chiefs and LDO's that i'm friends with.

whegner Junior Member

Actually 45% is down from when I was in between '84-'94 when it was closer to 60%. I think it's more a matter of initial duty assignment more than anything else. We have a wide variety of facilities that can be quite unique compared to some of the other branches. Think about it, Quantico is to Yuma as black is to white. A young Marine coming out of "A" school will more likely get certified at Quantico or New River than at Yuma, Cherry Point, or Mirimar. Also factor in whether they go tower or radar first (Does an ASR/PAR rating still equal an MOS?). Finally, my experience was that very few Marines "Homesteaded" (I had 5 CTO's in 10 years) meaning that there was always a chance that training continuity could be compromised because guys were PCS'd out of facilities on a pretty routine basis (not to mention deployments). The only place I saw where that wasn't the case was El Toro because the DoD's pretty much ran the training there.

I will say though that I am kind of torn. I think a higher washout rate is actually better in the long run but it does strain readiness and I also see the Corps not wanting to toss money and resources down the drain.

The only suggestion I have is to involve the DoD's more in the training program. They are there to provide continuity and should have a say in controller development. Most of them are former Marines themselves so they should have a needs of the Corps mindset in addition to an attitude of trying to make the best controllers they can out of the Marines they have.

SSgt Young StuckMic Marine Corps Liaison California

Whegner, Things have definately changed since you've been in. We have to get our first qual nine months after school, have to have two up or two down within three years, a cto arrival or approach at six, two of the three at nine and all three at 12. The dod civillians do run the show and are very good at training. However, we are looking to filter out those that just can't do the job before we waste the money on them. So while i high washout rate is great for getting rid of the non hackers my goal is to find a way to get rid of them before they hit the fleet.

Radium Epic Member SoCal Tracon

Being AF, I'm completely clueless on how the MC is. I do know, when I drive by Miramar every day it looks busy as shit. Is there anyway you can work something out kind of like the old faa way of: Starting slow, then moving up.

For instance, I'm a radar guy... I got sent to a relatively SLOW radar base. Easy work, easy checkout... then you have time to refine it. Then you get to deploy and really refine your skills, or change station, and do the same.

Obviously thats not gonna make/give you the best of the best controller wise (we had people who maybe shouldn't be ATCers)... but as with anything, the more time you have to do it... the better you should be. From a NUMBERS standpoint, it seems like your success rate would be much higher.

JUST like how in the early 80's, the OTS people did GREAT across the country because they started "slow". THIS time around, they all got sent to the Chicago Tracon's of the world and got washed out and wasted millions of dollars.

whegner Junior Member

Good, I'm glad to see that it has changed. In my day, (God I don't feel old enough to say that) it was more of a sink or swim atmosphere which was fine for the guys who had the aptitude coming in but killed the marginal guys.

In reality, I'm not so sure there really is a way to pre-screen controllers before they start OJT. I'm sure you've already looked into it but maybe you should study a couple of factors surrounding the current wash out rate.

First go location specific:
What locations wash the most out?
Where in their training were they?
Is it more in tower or radar? What position?
Are training guidelines standardized and being met and documented?
Is there consistency in hours on position?
% of previously rated controllers washed out. How does that factor into the overall rate?

Then summarize the results Marine Corps wide. That should provide you with some sort of trending matrix. It will be a no-brainer that Marines out of "A" school will wash out of Miramar's tower for example but why are previously rated guys struggling at Beaufort or Iwakuni.

As Radium mentioned above maybe a two level system can be developed where only experienced controllers go to the high density/high complexity facilities.

SSgt Young StuckMic Marine Corps Liaison California

Radium, The problem with the Marine Corps is first we are a very small service. Second our community within the service is also very small. If we started everyone out at a slow base then we would have Marines only in Japan, two bases on the east coast and one on the west. Even then very few can go from one of those bases to a busier one and not feel like a boot.

Wheg, I've already broken down the USMC info by every category you can imagine. The biggest washer is GC Corps wide and all the bases are pretty even when it comes to revos. The majority of the washes are first termers out of the school house.

mtlatc Epic Member In a bus down by the river!

SSgt Young,

I think the military has been trying to answer this question long before you and I were a part of it (and I'm retired). The problem with ATC is no matter how much you test/screen folks you're never going to know if they will make it until they plug in and start talking to real aircraft. Same to be said of prior rated...I watched prior tower guys wash in radar, and vice versa. If you do ever figure it out you should be promoted to BG….

SSgt Young StuckMic Marine Corps Liaison California

MTL, I wouldn't take the promotion. Not enough work involved in it. i'm not trying to solve all of the problems just trying to reduce them.