Heavy in the tower pattern

NUWATC Rookie

Here is the senario:
Heavy aircraft in the tower pattern doing multiple touch and goes. Continuous stream of GCA aircraft on final approach.

Here is the question:
Can i use visual seperation by calling the final controller, making a traffic call,have the final controller wait for his aircraft to report my aircraft in sight, then have the final controller tell his aircraft on GCA final to maintain visual sep, caution wake turbulance? I realy dont think you can. you are adjusting the aircrafts flight path with ever turn you give him on a PAR and if it is some monitiored instrument approach the aircraft cant deviate from the published proceedure to maintain visual. So then in that case do i need the approprite mileage behind the heavy? And if i do need mileage who is responsible, radar, or tower. And does that change if i have a certified radar display in the tower or not? Chew on that for a while, let me know what you guys come up with.

ATC_MacGyver MacGyver with the bears.

you seem to know all the rule pertaining to this. i will add this though. if a controller tells a pilot to maintain visual separation, it is up to the pilot to tell the controller if he can no longer do it. i would say this includes with wake turbulence.

one more thing is this
5-9-5. APPROACH SEPARATION
RESPONSIBILITY
a. The radar controller performing the approach
control function is responsible for separation of radar
arrivals unless visual separation is provided by the
tower, or a letter of agreement/facility directive
authorizes otherwise. Radar final controllers ensure
that established separation is maintained between
aircraft under their control and other aircraft
established on the same final approach course.

so as long as you call the traffic. it is up to the final controller to make sure.

next up, i would ask why you would tell a pilot on final to maintain visual separation from an aircraft in the vfr pattern? do you do this every time you have vfr traffic and GCA traffic? or just when the vfr traffic is heavy? i've done lots of mixed gca/tower pattern but rarely did we deal with heavy a/c in our tower pattern.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

NU,
As long as you had proper wake turbelence seperation prior to the following aircraft accepting visual seperation from the heavy, "YES" you may use visual seperation rules, between the trailing acft and the heavy, but you as the tower controller can't offer to provide visual seperaton.

It doesn't matter if the Heavy is on a GCA approach and the trailing aircraft is or isn't as long as the trailing aircraft is willing to accept responsibility for visual seperation, again the key is that you "MUST" have appropriate wake turbelence prior to the application of visual seperation

NUWATC Rookie

well ive only had a Heavy in the tower pattern once, and we did have GCA finals going on, radar doesnt know what i have in the tower pattern. so im kinda wondering how to work it if the situation arises again. that time i got lucky and i was able to have the heave follow the GCA each time. i just cant think of a way to get the mileage for the aircraft on final from my heavy. essecialy if the GCA's are spaced 3 miles apart. I was thinking visual might be an out but i cant think of a way to apply it, and if i needed mileage and my radar display went out ( and it has ) i would have no way of doing so.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

NU,
If the GCA didn't have arrivals spaced 3 miles apart (which is the min) you could point out the heavy to the pattern traffic and say maintain visual seperation, caution wake turbelence from Heavy C5, Rwy xx ceared touch and go.

In all honesty, if possible when I have heavy traffic on one runway, I try to put my small traffic on another runway to greatly reduce the wake turbelence problems. I know that isn't always possible, so sometimes you'll just have to spin them on the downwind to fit the pattern traffic into the arrival sequence, or ask approach/GCA to give you room for your pattern traffic.

ClayZ1989 Newcomer Eielson AFB, AK

You cannot use visual seperation in lieu of wake turbulence seperation. We deal with this issue alot here at dover as we have all C-5's and C-17's. If you turn a heavy inside of an aircraft on final you have to provide them the proper wake turbulence seperation on final. 7110.65 5-5-4

ATC_MacGyver MacGyver with the bears.

i dont think i agree with this. you can instruct a pilot to maintain separation behind a heavy.

you as the controller can not maintain it. only the airplane can... is that what you are getting at?

ClayZ1989 Newcomer Eielson AFB, AK

If that aircraft is in a downwind and you issue him traffic and he calls it in sight. Then he can turn base whenever he wishes and you are not responsible for the wake turbulence seperation. If he is on an ILS approach and cannot alter his course to create seperation, then you must provide him with the proper wake turbulence seperation.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

If it is AF1 than you don't have have to worry, as a bunch of people here say it is never a heavy.

palaver2010 Newcomer

I question the seperation requirerment also. the situation is the heavy/b757 is in the VFR pattern. Approach is either clearing acft for the visual or putting acft on an ILS (only one runway @ the airport). what is towers seperation requirement? all that is written is radar (IFR)mileage. How can a tower controller provide radar seperation? The approach controller has not IDed the heavy so whats he to use, he may not even know about the heavy in the pattern. If the tower is working a small in the pattern with the heavy the twr just calls the tfc to the small prior to the small getting behind the heavy and advises the small to mantian visual sep. caution ect.The two pattern acft rules are in the book spelled out but when approach is running acft on final what is towers seperation requirerment?
ie... if the approach tfc checks in six mile final can I clear the heavy for the t/g and start a two mile base? whats the rule? sure its a good practice to follow the approach tfc but if they're lined up 20 miles out 5 to 8 mile gaps you have to get the t/g in some where.