Max Forward Speed Requests Below Class B

OttoFeather Newcomer

There is a bone of contention among pilot?s regarding ATC?s request for ?max forward speed? while operating below the floor of Class B airspace. This frequently is requested of aircraft departing or arriving Teterboro, NJ while below New York?s Class B which counts three airports as its primary airports.

I say requests for speeds in excess of 200 knots below Class B should be refused. 91.117(C) and AIM 4-4-12(h) and (i) are the basis for my opinion. Many pilots cite 1.1 Definitions for Administrator. They contend the Administrator has delegated his/her authority when it comes to speed request and must be obeyed. The only case where I believe the Administrator has ?delegated authority in the matter concerned? was when 300 knots was allowed for departures within Houston?s Class B.

I believe the purpose of the 200 knot limit is because higher performance aircraft are mixing in with smaller, slower aircraft transiting below Class B most likely without contact with ATC.

So, my question to ATC controllers is: Are you taught that speed requests in excess of 200 knows below Class B airspace are ones that you should expect to be complied with?

References from .65 would be great.



Sec. 1.1 General definitions. Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.

Sec. 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may
operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of
more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may
operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4
nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace
area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This
paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace
area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a
Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor
designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated
airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is
greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft
may be operated at that minimum speed.


AIM 4-4-12. Speed Adjustments (Excerpted)
h. Pilots are reminded that they are responsible for rejecting the application of speed adjustment by ATC if, in their opinion, it will cause them to exceed the maximum indicated airspeed prescribed by 14 CFR Section 91.117(a), (c) and (d). IN SUCH CASES, THE PILOT IS EXPECTED TO SO INFORM ATC. Pilots operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL who are issued speed adjustments which exceed 250 knots IAS and are subsequently cleared below 10,000 feet MSL are expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a).
i. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to U.S. registered aircraft operating beyond 12 nautical miles from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c).
j. For operations in a Class C and Class D surface area, ATC is authorized to request or approve a speed greater than the maximum indicated airspeeds prescribed for operation within that airspace (14 CFR Section 91.117(b)).
NOTE-
Pilots are expected to comply with the maximum speed of 200 knots when operating beneath Class B airspace or in a Class B VFR corridor (14 CFR Section 91.117(c) and (d)).

atcpookie Junior Member FAA Headquarters, Washington, DC

First the AIM is not regulatory and is just a suggestion so can't be referenced as a rule.

As far as the .65 - read 5-7-2 note 2.

The big rule is in the CFR's - no pilot may comply with instructions given by a controller if the instructions will cause a violation of the CFR's.

So if a controller says "maximum forward speed" to an aircraft below class B then the pilot can only go 200kts.

Hope this helps

OttoFeather Newcomer

Figured the AIM was icing on the cake. Thanks for the refs'.

ghogue Newcomer TN

Otto,
In reference to your pilot friends who think the Administrator has delegated authority to ATC, show them the reference (Part 91 preamble) I have attached. It isn't specifically about speed below Class B, but it clearly expresses the fact that the Administrator has the authority and not ATC. I know some will reject the info since it does not address the speed below Class B, but I think it is very clear on the matter.

Attached Files

ATC vs. Administrator.pdf (42.9 KB, 15 views)

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

i think max forward means max allowable. if your below 10,000 and told to maintain max forward, then 250kts is what u should do if your able. for the most part max forward is used for sequencing and usually for slow guys trying to mingle with the fast guys. usually i'll only use max forward for those reasons.

i don't expect the pilot to throw the throttles to red line when i issue max forward.

atcbrownie Trusted Member Warrenton Va

I agree completely. Max forward speed does not mean go as fast as your aircraft can go but, go as fast as you are allowed to go based on pilot regs and what is operationally feasable.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Legally we aren't supposed to request that you exceed the speed for Class B or below 10,000, but in reality we sometimes do because we are trying to fill a gap in the sequence that you are in the right place and time to fill so that we can keep a smooth arrival stream going.

I will say it is extremely important that if you are asked to maintain max forward speed and you are reluctant to push up the throttle that you reply with "ROGER, I'll hold XXX speed (be it 200 or faster), this will give the controller the information that he/she needs to determine if their plan is going to work.

GOOD QESTION!