parallel rwy with heavy's

AlphaAlpha Newcomer In the sand

parallel rwy's less than 2500ft apart, two heavy's in the vfr pattern just following each other round and round, traffic issued, traffic in sight and caution wake turb issued.

ok here we go...the 1st/heavy is short final to the left and the 2nd/heavy is 1 mile final to the right.

Is there any type of separation needed/applied? I don't think so after traffic issued and in sight with a caution wake turb.

I'm told that same rwy separation is applied and the 2nd/heavy can not pass the 1st/heavy at all even tho they are on different landing strips (wake turb sep).

So, i'm confused..someone please help me understand the same rwy sep and wake turb sep.

At a previous base we were basing heavy's to each rwy and sometimes #2 would pass #1 on the go...no issues there. traffic/wake turb issued...all good.

atcguruaf Rico Suave Right here

since you've applied the visual separation, there is no separation required on your end. Depending on the type of approaches the aircraft are doing (cleared for the option would be best), I may or may not apply separation for when they're on the go.

For example, if you issue visual separation to both heavies, then I wouldn't worry about it. But if you only told #2 to maintain visual, and #2 passes #1, you'd have busted separation (in my mind).

the Bible says that, with runways separated by less than 2500, you need to have 2 minutes/4 miles. But, since the aircraft are conducting "successive" approaches, I'd apply the visual separation to both aircraft and be done with it, just to be safe.

In short: The 2nd aircraft can pass the 1st aircraft so long as traffic was issued to the first aircraft and the 2nd aircraft, and both are instructed to maintain visual separation.

The above is for the OP.

The below is for those, well, you know who you are:

P.S. Before someone gets their panties in a wad: Yes, #1 may lose sight of #2 once they turn final if #2 ends up behind them. Your question of "how is he supposed to maintain visual" can be answered because if you issue it soon enough, say while both are on downwind, you put the responsibility on BOTH pilots as to when to maintain visual separation. It is then the pilot's responsibility to turn their base, on the go, etc. The pilot must advise you if he loses sight. Besides, he can use his rearview mirrors... haha.

This question would better be posed to radar controllers: If 2 aircraft are maintaining visual, and you only have 3 miles of separation when you need 5, what do you do when the #2 aircraft says they've lost the heavy in the clouds (or whatever)? You only have 3. How does a radar controller handle it? I assume you find ways to establish the required separation ASAP.

I'd do the same in the tower. If #1 (while doing a t/g) loses sight of #2 (doing a l/a) and #2 will pass #1, I would turn #2 ASAP to the right and turn #1 ASAP to the left. Just my take is all.

mikecoyne34 Trusted Contributor BNA

that should close out this post. nothing else can be said. you covered it all.

MIAvectors Loving Life

Here is my problem with this scenario... yes, you can have them maintain visual separation from each other, but in your case they are making their landing to different(parallel) runways. This rule can only be used for a/c operating on the same runway. Sounds stupid I agree, but it is what it is... 3-9-7:

4. Successive touch‐and‐go and stop‐and‐go operations are conducted with any aircraft following a heavy aircraft/B757 in the pattern, or heavy aircraft/B757 departing the same runway, provided the pilot of the aircraft is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding heavy aircraft/B757. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the heavy aircraft/B757.

And i'm with Mike... heavy #2 CANNOT pass heavy #1.

AlphaAlpha Newcomer In the sand

Thanks All

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

>This question would better be posed to radar controllers: If 2 aircraft are maintaining visual, and you only have 3 miles of separation when you need 5, what do you do when the #2 aircraft says they've lost the heavy in the clouds (or whatever)? You only have 3. How does a radar controller handle it? I assume you find ways to establish the required separation ASAP.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Answer: This does occur from time to time, and to be honest if I know there is a cloud layer that either acft might have to go through I usually won't use visual until they are below the clouds. If #2 just looses sight of #1 and weather isn't an issue then you have to wonder what they were doing to loose sight of #1.

When #2 does loose sight of #1 who is a heavy and you are already at 3 miles, your best option is to quickly pull #2 off the approach, and do whatever you can to re-establish appropriate seperation or re-sequence.

QA should not try to gig you with an OE since the pilot accepted using Visual Seperation and should had refused it if there was a chance that they might loose sight of the Heavy. I've seen managment still try to gig the controller for bad technique, but the key is that you immediately took action.

stasi2002 Junior Member

the section that says something about simultanious approaches to parellel rny

runway centerline to runway centerline (1st Value)
runway centerline to edge of landing srtip
CAT III - 700ft 600
CAT II - 500 400
CAT I - 300 200
(somewhere in chapter 3 and says something about having 2 way radio comm with both aircraft and is done in VFR conditions)


All you need for two heavy aircraft are 6000ft and airborn if runways are seperated by less than 2500 but more than 700ft... If one of the aircraft is IFR then you have to use the 4 miles in front and 6000 and airborn behind the aircraft

atcguruaf Rico Suave Right here

the visual separation that I'm applying is for overtaking on final and departure/departure separation (no, not using visual for dep/dep because that's not allowed), let me explain. If you apply visual separation to #2 and #1 they can turn base when they feel comfortable and (imo) should anticipate when to go on the go so as to not be overtaken by one or the other because you then need the 2 minutes/4 miles. It basically puts the "bust" on the pilot, however, again in the instance where #1 is overtaken, get the aircraft turned asap.

atcguruaf Rico Suave Right here

this is wrong.

MIAvectors Loving Life

Wow... so wrong. I am praying you aren't certified anywhere.