Local monitor/local assist

AlphaAlpha Newcomer In the sand

does anyone know where i can find the definition of Local monitor/local assist position...in regards to 3-9-4 on TIPH.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

2-10-3. What is your specific question?

AlphaAlpha Newcomer In the sand

i. Do not authorize aircraft to simultaneously taxi into position and hold on the same runway, between sunrise and sunset, unless the local assist/local monitor position is staffed.

ok...i got local assist but is local monitor just the trainer position? because the WS monitors local and in my twr so does every other position.

pretty much i want to go back to the days when i could tiph an acft at the app end and intersection.

Here's another question. If an acft is back taxiing down the rwy because part of the taxiway is closed and you instruct the acft to 180 and advise ready for departure. is the acft considered "Position and Hold" after the 180 is complete? Or no, because you never actually said Position and hold even though the acft is facing down the rwy not moving, just waiting for a takeoff clearance.
I say if he's on the rwy holding then he is in Position and hold regardless if you said "Position and hold".......just curious what ya'll think

FM_Weasel Trusted Member

This is how we treat it at my facility, and we actually don't use TIPH at all. Sometime prior to the aircraft reaching the end of the runway, I ask the pilot if they're ready to depart or if they'll need a delay at the end. If a delay is needed, I instruct them to exit the runway and hold short. Traffic permitting, if they only need a moment or two, I would simply clear them for take off. Then it's the pilot's discretion to begin takeoff roll. I would stop short of "approving" any holding on the runway, to avoid the perception that I'm utilizing TIPH without calling it TIPH.

Given how long it takes some folks to start rolling after a normal takeoff clearance, this doesn't seem all that different.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

Alrighty... since there is a forward slash between local monitor/local assist position, I consider them the same position. Since they call it a "position", rather than just a function, you cannot consider it to be open simply if someone else is monitoring you (i.e. Watch Sup, GC, etc.).

The aircraft you're talking about is not considered "in takeoff position" after the 180 is complete. Since we're all about legalities and specifically what the book means/says, then you would be okay in this operating practice. However, if you are at a military installation, I can see this getting cleared up very easily by the CCTLR.

All you told the aircraft to do is "make a 180 and advise ready for departure". The aircraft can do what he wants after the 180... continue taxiing on the runway, sit there, etc. Of course, personally, as the aircraft is making the 180, I'd ask if it was ready for departure... if the answer is in the affirmative, I'd clear for takeoff. If not, I'd either taxi it off the runway or ask how long it needed.

This is a way for controllers to get around TIPH procedures is my opinion. For legal purposes, let's look at it this way.

If you do this, and the aircraft is holding there, and something happens, some lawyer will probably come back and say "you never said position and hold," or something to that effect. I feel you can use this very argument.


Something else I might do:

"N12345, Tower, turn left and back taxi down rwy 18R, will you be ready at the end?"

"N12345, back taxi, yes, we'll be ready"

once the aircraft gets down there and starts the 180

"N12345, rwy 18R, cleared for takeoff"


If he states:

"N12345, back taxi...uhhh, we'll need a minute once we get down there"

"N12345, turn left at the end, hold short of rwy 18R, advise when ready."


No point in holding him on the runway if he's not going to be ready. If it's for traffic purposes (as TIPH is intended), I would anticipate the 180 to fit in w/ the traffic, then clear for takeoff. If it is indeed for traffic, if you have time to make a 180 and hold for 3 seconds, you probably have time to quickly exit, make a 180 and depart... you really don't save yourself much of anything by having the aircraft make a 180 and hold.