Separation between SVFR and IFR

AndrewG Newcomer

Scenario:

Level 12 TRACON with some 60+ sattelite airports. The airport in particular we are talking about is a contract tower and has an LOA with the TRACON to provide SVFR opearations in their surface area at or below 2,000 and must provide separation between all IFR arrivals/departures. They are automatically authorized to do with without calling the TRACON for the airspace.

I have a couple questions....how the heck are VFR tower controllers able to provide separation between an IFR arrival and SVFR aircraft? Departures may be easier as they can have the SVFR guy go out west and release an IFR aircraft eastbound or something.

Here is the other thing....the towers class delta is 5 miles in diameter. The LOA says that the tower will ONLY separate (even though I am still stumped as to how) the SVFR aircraft from arrivals and departures. So scenario, TRACON is providing IFR service to an aircraft at 2,000 feet and is being vectored approximately 7 miles from the Class D in question and that tower is providing SVFR services to an aircraft at 2,000 that is navigating away from the airport and is approaching the edge of the delta but is not clear of the surface area. These two aircraft come within two miles of eachother, is this a deal? What type of separation was required, and whose deal was it?

I have been certified at 5 different towers and have never had the repsonsibility of separting SVFR aircraft from IFR aircraft (for the most part).

By the way, these are both fixed wing aircraft.

AndrewG Newcomer

And what really chaps my ass is why would the TRACON even want any part o this when every other class delta in their airspace requests the surfave area when the need it from the TRACON and when they are done, gives it back to the TRACON.

Would you want to be on an IFR arrival in crappy weather on an E-145 talking to the tower and have the tower (which is not radar certified) trying to separate you from a plane that is dodging clouds trying to stay VFR?

Will something bad ever happen? Maybe not....but this LOA in my opinion needs to be changed.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

maybe the SVFR is a helo. pretty easy to do in that case.

AndrewG Newcomer

Again, both aircraft are fixed wing.

No one hasan answer as to the separation between SVFR fixed wing and IFR aircraft?

I don't, that is why I am asking.

MusicMan81 Junior Member OKC

It's spelled out in .65 regarding SVFR helo's, but I have yet to interpret a good solid answer out of the .65 regarding fixed wing a/c. At my facility, we basically all use the 1 in 1 out rule.

WatchThis Trusted Member Arizona

I'll be totally honest and say that if I was presented this for solution, I'd definately get some help from others to ensure nothing was missed or over/under developed. So, take what I say with a grain of salt.

First point about the LOA, I totally understand it because the approach facility wants to totally absolve themselves of the SVFR operation so they don't have to deal with it. This also gives them the questionable belief that they are not responsible for the errors or other problems. The Tower and pilot do get a small benefit from this type of agreement because coordination and delays tend to be less.

In your scenario, the situation is on the ragged edge because the SVFR aircraft appears to be nearing other IFR aircraft in controlled airspace outside the D. So, I do believe the approach controller should be protecting the three miles, or whatever is required under the circumstances if altitude separation is not being used. Although the protection ends for the SVFR aircraft outside the D boundary, the protection of the IFR aircraft still exists when their protected airspace enters within the D boundary where your guy is still doing his SVFR thing. Controllers have to ensure one of the aircraft remains out of the protected airspace of the other at all times, which seems violated in your scenario. It doesn't matter that two different controllers are working the aircraft involved, the requirement is the same as if a single controller were doing it all.

Just a quick note about the SVFR aircraft. If he's exiting the D into controlled airspace with less than appropriate cloud clearance and visibility (full VFR requirements), he's illegal as hell. He should be full VFR before he exits the D into controlled airspace so he can comply with the increased cloud and visibility requirements immediately adjacent to the D. If he can't do that, he should return to the airport or descend into uncontrolled airspace. If you have a pilot that's doing this willingly, a complaint would be appropriate.

Who's deal. Well, with the info provided, I think it's approach'es deal because the tower is only required to provide sep between arrivals and departures. Approach is responsible to separate all others, to include separating from what has been delegated to the tower. There's probably some room for the Tower and management to get some stink on them as well. You didn't state it but I would expect the LOA to include either weather conditions or an outright statement from the tower when SVFR ops are expected or in progress. This would be the trigger for approach control to start protecting for the potential SVFR operations. If I'm in the seat, that would generally mean all my IFR aircraft are going to be at or above 2500 when in close to the D in question. Depending on how the LOA reads, I might not provide any protection when good weather prevails.

Back when the LOA was written, there may have been an expectation that approach didn't have a need or was fine controlling their aircraft at or above 2500 in the vicinity of the tower this applies to. Over time, that concept may have been lost or the need has changed. People don't usually put numbers in LOA's unless separation from other aircraft was reviewed and taken into account. If the needs have changed, then the LOA may need to be changed too.

Hope the rambling makes sense.

AndrewG Newcomer

The LOA is a draft. Approach takes this new airspace in a month. Tower already signed the LOA, approach is going to so basically the LOA is going to be written like this. There is also no requirement in the LOA for the tower to notify when it is IFR or VFR...their only requirement is to let TRACON know when they cannot provide visual separation inside the marker.

WatchThis Trusted Member Arizona

Well, it doesn't really have to be in there if approach is going to protect for SVFR as a matter of SOP. I suppose approach could base their operational procedures on existing weather but as we all know, a pilot could request SVFR when the airport is reporting VFR. If the tower advised approach about potential SVFR operations, it could quickly turn into coordinating every one of them, which would defeat the purpose of delegating the operation in the first place. There's a fine line to be struck and you may have everything you need already.

Whether or not there is a problem kind of depends on how the SOP is set up. I'm thinking approach has no need to control IFR in that area below 2500 (except arrivals/departures) and is why they delegated 2000 and below. The tower wouldn't necessarily need to know how approach is going to operate around the requirements and is why it doesn't have to be sorted out in the LOA, similar to 7110 rules not being restated in LOAs.

You may not know of all the issues until you go live with the agreement. If it's a brand new LOA with new procedures, I wouldn't be surprised to see some changes soon after it goes into effect.

BonanzaMan Junior Member

Very simple. You are dealing with airspace. Usually between terminal radar facilities each facility is required to stay a mile and a half from the boundary. But you're dealing with a VFR tower so therefore the radar facility has to remain 3 miles from the boundary. The radar facility may obviate this requirement by staying at or above 2500. The SVFR aircraft needs zero separation as soon as he crosses the 5 mile boundary.

AndrewG Newcomer

Thanks for all the responses.

I am still curious as how a VFR tower provides separation between a SVFR fixed wing aircraft and an IFR arrival or departure. The departure is fairly simple like I said before. Send the SVFR guy west and release the IFR guy east.

IFR arrivals are a different story. It seems like the common attitude with the TRACON airspace and procedures and even QA is...."we've got them to take responsibilty in an LOA...so just let them deal with it." All the people in the room just laugjed at this procedure but accepted it because it appears less work for them. This is about safety. First, this is not about passing the buck to someone. Our job is to separate aircraft. Why even give a tower that responsibilty when they aren't certified to use radar separation. Why not just let the TRACON handle it and make the tower call when it needs the surface area.