Separation between SVFR and IFR

AndrewG Newcomer

What is the separation requirement between a fixed wing SVFR and IFR aircraft?

In chapter 7 of the .65 it just says use approves separation between those two.

Does that mean use IFR separation or maybe 3 miles and 500 ft?

Help please!

atcpookie Junior Member FAA Headquarters, Washington, DC

Boy did you pick the wrong place to ask this question...... you ae going to getmany different "opinions" from many who seem to be unable to read.... Your best bet is to email your local QA and get the legal interpritation.... if it makes it up to me here, maybe then I'll get to answer it. Untill then... let the contradictions begin.......

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

this should be an interesting thread.

noid Curtis E. Carr Jawja

You have the opportunity to answer it here and possibly help someone understand the rule better. Especially a rule like this that isn't as clearly defined as others.

WatchThis Trusted Member Arizona

Hmmm...

To the OP, can you be a little more specific on the scenario? Are you talking all departures, all arrivals, pattern work, mixed, etc... I'll say that the biggest argument you would get here is whether you can mix at all. The general answer is: It depends on what you have going on.

In some cases you can mix, in others you can't. The '10 indicates you can apply vectoring, non-radar, and/or altitude separation. That being the case, 3 and 500 is an over simplification because all of these rules may result in less or more than those numbers laterally. If aircraft are using separated altutudes, altitude separation would likely be the easiest form of separation.

Altitude separation would, of course, be a problem with arrivals and departures unless you can guarantee lateral separation close to the airport. Establishment of SVFR routes for the SVFR pilot to fly that provide for separation from departure/arrival corridors make this process much easier than just doing it from the hip. This takes some pre-planning by the management to make it easy on the controllers but establishment of routes is not required to apply the rules.

The reason someone might stick to one-at-a-time operations when they don't really have to is because of the potential unpredictability of the SVFR aircraft. Although the SVFR aircraft will normally be successful staying below a certain altitude, they may not be successful maintaining their course, which makes vectoring the other guy a bit questionable if they are relatively close. This idea is similar to the potential separation problems with contact approaches. Another reason you might get the one-at-a-time answer is from people that just don't do the SVFR operation much. In that case, it's easier to just let the SVFR operation conclude or cancel it prior to resuming other IFR operations. This is fine but can result in less than expeditious handling.

In summary, according to the 7110, your separation standards include:

atcpookie Junior Member FAA Headquarters, Washington, DC

Yeah, I thought I?d come on here to help in understanding our rules and how legal sees them a long time ago. But after posting things from the .65 and NOTICE?s that were clearly spelled out, I still had people insisting that the sentence they just read wasn?t saying what it was.
So now I just come on here and read?. And I?m content in knowing that as I assist in making policy I?ll be able to educate these people as I process their QA forms?.. but there are always those who will skirt by and be able to avoid detection of their ignorance. I?m not above a PM if my knowledge of the goings on up here is truly wanted.

meatasaurusx Trusted Member Chi-town

SVFR is very confusing. I just started training on a satellite position so I'm finally doing some approach control. We have LOA's regarding SVFR but we don't see it very much. I thought it was pretty much a one in one out operation during SVFR.

mbalunda Epic Member

That's my basic understanding of it. It's not something we see much, and even when I ask the experienced guys at work there seems to be a lot off differing opinions.

The only example I've ever gotten of someone using it was with one of our aiports where the tower calls us for a release. Basically the tower was high enough that they were over a fog bank, but the aircraft on the ground wasn't in VFR conditions. Apparently they requested a SVFR release knowing the A/C would be in VFR conditions immediately after take off. That was the only person I could find who ever actually used it.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

that sounds like a VFR-on-top would've been more appropriate than a SVFR clearance. just my 2 cents.

BonanzaMan Junior Member

Western Terminal Services has made it easy and contra to the .65. They have interpreted the .65 to mean we(class C TRACON) cannot have anybody else in the surface area with a SVFR. Even though the .65 says this:

7-5-3. SEPARATION
a. Apply approved separation between:
1. SVFR aircraft.
2. SVFR aircraft and IFR aircraft.


So what do they mean approved separation, that there is some right? If I can't have anybody else in the surface area then this paragraph is somewhat superfluous no? So as usual some center controller management type completely misunderstands the .65.