Touch and Go/Heavy Departure

WatchThis Trusted Contributor Arizona

Don't disagree with any of that but there's an explicit waiver from having to apply those rules in this situation. Read 3-9-7 b, and then read 3-9-7 b3 and b4. The main statement in b and supporting paragraphs in b3 and b4 remove the controller requirement to apply the time rule in this thread's scenario.

One of the main restrictions to apply this waiver is the controller must not imply or require the smaller aircraft to turn base early (paraphrasing). The smaller aircraft must be allowed to take up their own desired spacing. If this part of the rule can't be achieved, the controller must then apply the time interval if he's going to allow a touch and go or stop and go.

atcpookie Unregistered

This "explicit waver" you are claiming is called visual separation. Yes you don't need any of these rules when the pilot is providing his own visual seperation. All the other rules are taken away. However, you need to make sure it's THE PILOT providing the visual seperation as stated in the rules you quoted. I.E. get the readback of visual seperation from the piot.

atcpookie Unregistered

It doesn't say that anywhere in the .65. That's just what many people from years gone by have summed up those rules to mean. "if less than 2500 then you treat them as the same runway" you can't break a rule and it helps people remember them.

However, the .65 DOES say. When the runways are seperated by less than 2500 feet you must use these rules. These rules just hapen to be the same as the "same runway rules".

WatchThis Trusted Contributor Arizona

I don't "claim" it, it's right there in black and white. Not my fault you don't like it.

atcpookie Unregistered

I love it, I've used it when ever I can. You just went round-about without actually speaking it's name. Don't be so quickly insulted on here. I meant nothing by it.... just putting a name to that which you did not.

GLF5 Senior Member

I understand what everyone is saying. I do. I did it all this way previously but now I'm not convinced having been at a new facility who does it this 'newer' way.

1. Separate a small aircraft taking off from an intersection on the same runway (same or opposite direction takeoff) behind a preceding departing large aircraft by ensuring that the small aircraft does not start takeoff roll until at least 3 minutes after the large aircraft has taken off.

2. Separate any aircraft taking off from an intersection on the same runway (same or opposite direction takeoff), parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet, and parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet with runway thresholds offset by 500 feet or more, by ensuring that the aircraft does not start takeoff roll until at least 3 minutes after a heavy aircraft/B757 has taken off.

These two paragraphs are back to back. We do not have a 3 minute wait for wake turbulence when departing the parallel with a large. We do with the heavy...because of these paragraphs. If the "parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet" is just there as a reminder, why isn't it in the first paragraph?

So, for this reason we do not do any visual or 3 minute stuff with touch and go on parallel runway when a large departs and are forbidden from using visual (3 mins only) when it's a heavy, since:

3. Successive touch-and-go and stop-and-go operations are conducted with a small aircraft following another small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft in the pattern, or a small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft departing the same runway, provided the pilot of the small aircraft is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding large aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the large aircraft.

4. Successive touch-and-go and stop-and-go operations are conducted with any aircraft following a heavy aircraft/B757 in the pattern, or heavy aircraft/B757 departing the same runway, provided the pilot of the aircraft is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding heavy aircraft/B757. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the heavy aircraft/B757.

...mention only the same runway. At first I was skeptical and was challenging the facility but it's making more sense this other way. Oddly enough.

WatchThis Trusted Contributor Arizona

Intresting distinction. It does appear that part b ("waiver") cannot be applied unless the aircraft does the stop and go/touch and go to the same runway as the heavy departure. Now, does that include "the pattern" part or just the "departure" part, or are those two separate issues in the same section? LOL!

atcguruaf Rico Suave Right here

Looks like something worthy of running up the chain. Seems like either way can be argued. Of course safest of the options is to have 3 minutes.

Something else to dissect is "successive". So what rule do we apply if an aircraft just wants 1 t/g and then depart the pattern or full stop afterwards?

RobertB Trusted Member

How many of you actually say,"(acid) maintain visual separation from the heavy Boeing 747. Caution wake turbulence. Runway 28L, cleared touch and go?"

The most likely thing to hear is, "(acid) caution wake turbulence departing heavy Boeing 747 off runway 28R, runway 28L cleared touch and go...

MIAvectors Loving Life

Well, no matter which side of this argument you are applying... if you don't say "maintain visual separation" in your landing clearance then it's a deal plain and simple haha. People don't realize that sometimes.



For what it's worth... we had an FAA inspection team at our facility a while back. We apply this rule daily with the PARALLEL runway and they didn't mention anything in their final report.