Touch and Go/Heavy Departure

GLF5 Senior Member

Debate at the facility. Please join in. Other facility wrong/right doings appreciated.

Heavy departing a runway. Small doing touch and go on parallel runway less than 2500'. What's the separation?

Amazingly the .65 is clear. However, retarded.

irishcarbomb Moderator Houston, TX

check here, it may have what you're looking for :

wake turbulence separation for touch-n-go

atcguruaf Rico Suave Right here

3 minutes or visual.

GLF5 Senior Member

Ok, now if you were at my place of work, you'd be getting your you know what slapped since touch and go operations mentioned in the .65 all refer to same runway, not parallel.

Intersection small departure after heavy departs parallel is 3 minutes. Unable to waive. They say this rule is for touch and goes too.

Intersection small departure after large departs parallel, no separation and can do touch and goes all day with no separation.

It makes no sense.

atcpookie Unregistered

Less than 2500ft between runways is treated as the same runway. That is in the .65................ slap back.

GLF5 Senior Member

But then they say if it was that way, why does the .65 differentiate between same and parallel in that paragraph if its always the same runway then? I'm only playing facility management here btw.

atcpookie Unregistered

I don't know what paragraph you are talking about... the .65 only differentiates by saying if it's more than 2500 then it is 2 runways when wake turbulance is involved.

Many people try and combine rules in order to cancel them out.... that's stupid and it will not stand up. Most try to combine the rules for Wake Turbulance with the rules for radar sepperation and so fourth.... these are seperate rules... sometimes you need both and sometimes you only need one... you can't just remove one when you want.

It's odd they think there is grey area because the .65 is very solid on this point. It even says it several times fairly clear. They referance this rule in 3-9-6 f and 3-9-6 j and 3-9-7 a,1

These are all saying this is "same runway separation" PLUS any runway that is less than 2500. No more, no less. It's really clear, any runways separated by more than 2500 don't fall under these rules and are treated as their own runways. If they are less than 2500 then they fall under these rules and you must uses these rules plus any other rules that are required.

Remeber we are only talking about same runway wake turbulace rules.... not radar or others. You may still need those others including these wake turbulance. You can't eliminate a rule, you either need it or you don't.

Hope this helps.

WatchThis Trusted Contributor Arizona

3-9-7 b3,4,5 and all of c. No time interval required unless b5 applies but issue the warning. Also, better not be saying things that make a pilot turn base early. They need to be provided the opportunity to adjust as they wish to avoid issues.

GLF5 Senior Member

So where does it say runways separated by less than 2500 are considered one runway for this rule? It all refers to same runway only. I'm seriously asking as this is the problem I am faced with.

atcguruaf Rico Suave Right here

I understand your confusion, but here are my points:

1. A touch and go/stop and go are to be considered intersection departures, which makes me look at 3-9-7.

2. - 3-9-7, a, 2 -

Separate any aircraft taking off from an intersection on the same runway (same or opposite direction takeoff), parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet, and parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet with runway thresholds offset by 500 feet or more, by ensuring that the aircraft does not start takeoff roll until at least 3 minutes after a heavy aircraft/B757 has taken off.


NOTE: Parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet with runway thresholds offset by less than 500 feet shall apply para 3-9-6, Same Runway Separation, subpara f.

3-9-6, f - Separate IFR/VFR aircraft taking off behind a heavy jet/B757 departure by 2 minutes, when departing:

2. A parallel runway separated by less than 2,500 feet.

Anyway, so my interpretation of all this:

Looking at 3-9-6, f, I feel I am departing behind a heavy jet/B757 specifically because touch-and-go/stop-and-go operations are to be considered intersection departures, so at minimum 2 minutes. However, further reading/cross-referencing leads me to 3-9-7, a, 2 (which you can read above). Same thing here. Since a touch and go is to be considered an intersection departure, I apply the 3 minutes or visual separation. I understand the aircraft is landing/doing a practice approach, however once that aircraft touches the ground, in my mind, he becomes an intersection departure and I MUST apply the rules stated in 3-9-7, a, 2.

And the book doesn't specifically state to "treat as same runway", but with regards to wake turbulence, just about every reference in CH. 3 states "or parallel runways separated by less than 2500", it's just a simple way of remembering/dealing with it. If your runways are less that 2500 feet apart, you treat as same runway when dealing with wake turbulence.