Dive bomb ILS

Denver Newcomer

So every time flying up from the south to Salinas ILS31 SNS in the Cessna 421 I fly I am vectored in way above Glideslope. I mean way above like I have to descend at 5 degrees to capture. Unless any Norcal Monterey guys are on this forum I don't expect to get a reason but for anyone else could it be an MVA thing? It seems to be a Center to Approach coord thing instead. I realize the terrain but to the east it is allot lower. I have asked this question over the frequency as to why this has to be and I only get veg answers from Oakland center that they need to coordinate this with Norcal. But by this time I am 2000 feet above the glideslope when I finally get handed off and cleared. Operationally this is very difficult in a Cessna 421 whithout speed brakes and with geared piston engines.

For some reason they don't want to vector me out to the east where the MVA's are lower first, enabling the pilot to intercept at 6,000. I know they can because being vectored from the north I am allways at 5,500 at the same distance (22nm).

I hope I am not sounding like a whining beoch but this thing is a geared piston aircraft w/o speed brakes and when it's rough and I have to keep it slow sometimes I have to get vectored back out.

I have allways wondered weather many controllers think a 421 is a turbo prop or just assume it is and I can just hanker out those props and come down at 5,000 fpm. Making my engines last to overhaul means the fastest we can come down is about 1200 fpm and sometimes less in really rough air.

Any insights?

Thanks

FoggyWindow Senior Member Zee Bee Dub

I think they are just having fun with you because they dont know the answer.

I dont know of any reason why they would set you up so high abv the GS. It could be a facility procedure due to some other airspace or a restricted area. Sometimes they have obstructions that hinder the final approach course and you gotta bring planes in from a higher altitude or you have to bring your planes in from a certain direction to avoid it.

atcpookie Unregistered

In reality, your best bet is to try and visit the facility and go talk to the guys that actually work that area. You may find that they didn’t know the issue or you’ll find that there is a procedural reason for it.

Hope this helps.

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

Enough. The guy asked an intelligent question. If you don't have something equally intelligent to add to the discussion, move along.

Cleaned up the thread some.

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

Denver, I don't think there are any Norcal Tracon guys on SM, but there's a couple from ZOA. I also know one in person who I'll run the question by, but I think he was Oceanic and probably isn't familiar with Salinas.

Denver Newcomer

I think that there is a usefull reason for this for them. Although I wonder how much thought a controller puts into the height of an aircraft above glideslope. This situation has killed a few people in the past due to abnormally high descent rates in instrument conditions. To me, it should be a red flag when the position of an aircraft on an ILS is "full down" on the ILS on the vector to final leg. Full down meaning that the aircraft is so high above the glideslope that the needle is pegged at the bottom of the instrument leaving the pilot to either make an abnormally high descent rate or reject the approach and go out for another. But when it is cronic at the same airport from the same direction from different controllers it really makes me wonder. Like clockwork this happens every time. And no other solutions are ever offered.

It just seems to me that if I were the controller, regardless of aircraft; I would make every effort to make shure they were in a position to not have to descend at over 1200 feet per minute on their instrument approach and preferably 1000. I realize that sometimes this may not be possible and then in this case a roundabout vector would be in order or at least offered, but at least I would be aware of it.

Every airplane is different and some can do more than others and most can come down faster than the 421. I can come down like a rock in a 172 or a Twin Otter but not this airplane. Heck, most pilots don't understand this airplane.

WatchThis Trusted Contributor Arizona

Bringing you in above glideslope on a precision approach is wrong and there's no way to sugar-coat that. It's a clear deviation from the rules. That being said, sometimes controllers don't anticipate that a pilot will be descending at an abnormally slow rate and can't make the altitude. Controllers might also believe they are doing you a favor by keeping it tight, not realizing that it's not really a favor at all. Regardless, the pilot has two options: Continue the approach or take it around for another try.

If you know this is an issue for your aircraft and that area, I suggest you ask the controller for a long approach intercept and not leave it up for chance. If you know the distance that works well for you, be specific in your request as to how long of an approach you want. Something else that helps is slow the heck down. Your required descent rate will improve if you go slower and plan early to get it done. Visiting or communicating with the facility off-line is possibly a good idea.

Denver Newcomer

This is a strait in scenario. The pattern from the north is not the problem. On this approach the landing gear is down at 10,000 feet which works great for speed breaks. It just gets rediculous to have flaps down and gear down from this altitude to keep it slow. The issue is really when the air is rough and airspeed is bouncing +- 20 knots and your trying not to rip the gear doors off.

I'll have to check in with the facility. I have always wanted to tour Norcal anyway.

WatchThis Trusted Contributor Arizona

Yeah, you may be able to find a better route in there that can get you an earlier descent. The one you are using may not be the best for terrain or other reasons.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

First of all it is against regulations for the controller to verctor you to intercept the glideslope from above the glidepath, the reason is because IT IS UNSAFE!

When this happens the next time, politely refuse the approach clearance by stating that you are unable to intercept the glide slope from above, request to be vectored for a proper intercept which put your aircraft below the glide slope altitude (and is above the MVA), the controller shouldn't refuse, and I hope they do not make any poor comments.

Like someone said some individuals think that they are doing you a favor not realizing that they are actually putting you and your aircraft into an unsafe situation, granted that the majority of the time it all works out, but you don't want to be that minority.

I would also suggest that you file a NASA safety report, and to be honest if this is a common occurance at this airport then I would make a phone call to the facility manager, if you don't get the right answers then file a formal complaint with FSDO. I don't normally advocate filing formal complaints but when safety is being comprimised we don't have a choice.