IFR in the traffic pattern

Your post is missing my point. The issue is not what they do after the touch and go, but the touch and go in the first place.

In your post you seem to imply that it would be ok for the IFR to leave the ILS, enter the traffic pattern for the other runway, all based on what they are doing after the touch and go.

Is that really what you meant?

i thought we already covered that part. if they are IFR on an ILS, they either complete the approach or they go missed.

if they want successive ILS, like i thought you asked, then u have to decide whether or not their going to do it IFR or VFR. depending on their answer u have a couple things you can respond with.

it would be ok to leave the ILS and continue the approach for another runway. that would be a circling approach. but it has to be spelled out prior to them doing it. and i DON'T mean complete the ILS to runway 36L then make right traffic to runway 36R for something else. they need to be VFR for right traffic to 36R.

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Thanks! I agree 100%

In addition, the 7110.65 clearly states to include the circling approval in the approach clearance, so 2 mile final is too late. In fact anytime after approach cleared, and switched to the tower is to late. I suppose you could re-clear them on final.

Cleared I-L-S runway two two approach, circle to runway three one.

The only other problem is you can't give them any instructions that might take them out of the very small circling area, such as extend or follow or whatever.

Roddy,

How do you reconcile your opinion that you can't take them off the ILS with FAAO 7110.65 para. 2-1-4, Note 1.

NOTE-
It is solely the pilot's prerogative to cancel an IFR flight plan. However, a pilot's retention of an IFR flight plan does not afford priority over VFR aircraft. For example, this does not preclude the requirement for the pilot of an arriving IFR aircraft to adjust his/her flight path, as necessary, to enter a traffic pattern in sequence with arriving VFR aircraft.

Does this NOTE only apply to IFR aircraft on a visual approach?

What "requirement" is the NOTE referring to anyway?

How would an IFR on an ILS, adjust his or her flight path as necessary, to enter a traffic pattern in sequence with arriving VFR aircraft, without deviating from the published ILS procedure?

If they are required to adjust their flight path, thus deviate form the published ILS procedure, in order to enter a traffic pattern in sequence with arriving VFR traffic, why can't they do the same thing and go to the other runway for the touch and go?

Not sure what Class B you work at. This is no way a flex my muscle comment, but at our Class B it is never slow enough to just keep a guy in the pattern. Maybe you could get away with that at 2 am but I don't work mids. I have never seen a pattern here in the over 2 years I’ve been here...there just isn’t enough space on final to stick them in.

Notwithstanding how busy it is, the question still remains, is it legal for IFR on ILS to enter the pattern on a different runway and do a touch and go, before going MA?

If not, what about the note in 2-1-4?

We'll get a 10-15 mile hole here and there and I've squeezed a go around in that hole without even giving them back to final...we also will have vfr guys that want to do a couple circuits in the pattern for testing and such...talking about GLF5s, BE20...other higher performance aircraft....we will let final know and sometimes even squeeze them in between a 6 mile hole they have on final, keeping them on the tower frequency the whole time.

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Your friendly neighborhood Lawn Gnome

sure...why wouldn't it be?...I would probably clear the a/c for a visual approach first, because he is obviously no longer doing an ILS if he is changing runways.

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Your friendly neighborhood Lawn Gnome

I LOVE how this job is always open to interpretation, haha!!

Here is my take on it: You can obviously work the pattern anytime you want. Some pilots actually file a flight plan to do it. It will show up as a D+15 or something like that, indicating a delay at the airport (very similar to a thru clearance). While in the pattern, at a controlled airport, they are technically VFR. Remember: there is no traffic responsibility between VFR/IFR. Therefore, even if they are still IFR, there is no seperation requirement between other aircraft in the pattern anyways. Now, if they want to shoot an approach into an uncontrolled field, work the pattern a little, and then go missed, the airspace (Im pretty sure) has to remain blocked, i.e. 3000 and below. No other IFRs will be allowed to shoot the approach until the aircraft in the pattern goes missed.

As far as 2-1-4 goes: I think basically, IFR aircraft that want to enter the pattern do not have PRIORITY over VFR aircraft that want to do the same.

The biggest concept here to realize is that an IFR aircraft that enters the pattern is no longer IFR. Like a thru clearance, the IFR flight plan is delayed (same as if he had landed) until he is ready to resume the IFR portion of the flight. And as for the Class B, haha, I think it would be very comical to see the reaction on most tower controllers face when you ask for closed traffic at a class B. I can only imagine the long pause shortly before the controller says "....uh...N123...uh...unable" and then the subtle roar as the entire tower cab erupts into laughter.

Then again, I have no idea...Im a center puke!!