IFR in the traffic pattern

CENTERPUKE-

At what point exactly do you consider an IFR that takes a 15 minute delay to stay in the pattern for closed traffic (D+15), to be VFR? When they cross the FAF, runway threshold?

What rules or procedures do you base that on?

LawnGnome,

Because, they are IFR and you have to provide terrain and obstruction clearance, not just separation from other aircraft. How are you getting around terrain and obstruction separation?

Of course if you clear them for the visual approach, then the terrain and obstruction separation is now on the pilot. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about someone cleared by approach for the ILS.

Is it legal for them to stay in the pattern IFR, not cleared for the visual, not cleared for the circling approach, stay in the pattern IFR and do a touch and go, before they go MA?

[/i][/i] I mainly base it on knowledge stored in my above average brain, j/k haha! Look at 7110.65 4-2-8. The aircraft is cleared to the airport, upon reaching the airport, the VFR portion would begin. The decision to end the IFR portion would be up to the pilot. As an IFR pilot he is required to do one of two things: Land or go missed. When he says, we would like to terminate the approach and work the pattern...presto!...he is VFR. Afterwards, when he is through working the pattern, you would reclear the aircraft, have it climb to an appropriate IFR altitude and resume the IFR portion of the flight.

"N123, cleared to the XXX airport via direct, climb and maintain 5000ft., sqwuak 2345" Presto! you have an IFR aircraft!

Remember, the pilot will tell you his intentions, if not, you will have to ask him what they are. There is no guess work behind it.

CENTERPUKE,
Thanks for your post!

So in the center environment, when a pilot says he wishes to terminate you don't have to say, maintain VFR, or squak 1200, or cancellation received?

I think what your saying is that you can't stay in the pattern IFR, but you can put a hold on an IFR flight plan in the NAS, and then under VFR play in the pattern, later picking up your old clearance, is that right? If so we agree.

In your D+15 example, the D+15, on the plan is only meant to tell controllers to keep the flight plan in the system, so you don't have to input it again later, it is not meant to mean that the plane is IFR the whole time, right?

Regardless, My original post was not about a plane who actually stated thay wanted to terminate the approach and go VFR in the pattern, it was about an IFR on the ILS approach that has to go around for whatever reason, animal on the runway, traffic, whatever.

In that scenario they never say anything about canceling IFR, or terminating the approach or whatever else. Can you keep them in the pattern legally or do they have to go MA, or cancel?

In your 4-2-8 example, it says the fix at which point the IFR part ends. The problem, absent the pilot saying he wants to terminate, where is that fix point? The runway threshold? The gate? 1/2 mile final?

Clearly, an aircraft remains IFR until it lands, or the pilot states they wish to cancel IFR, or terminate, and then you follow either one of thoes up with a big "cancellation received, maintain VFR".

Absent the pilot being cleared for a visual approach or a verbal exchange between pilot and controller regarding canceling IFR, they can't operate below the MVA, MIA, MEA or whatever other minimum altitude you want to throw in there.

In 4-2-8. it says:

IFR-VFR AND VFR-IFR FLIGHTS
a. Clear an aircraft planning IFR operations for the initial part of flight and VFR for the latter part to the fix at which the IFR part ends.

The question is where does it end?

Any of you tower guys can jump in here at anytime, haha.

The phraseology is the same for recieving a cancellation regardless of center or terminal. Yes, the flight plan being on hold is the way I see it. Like I said before, the pilot of an aircraft that is IFR has two choices, land or go missed. If he has to go around due to an animal on the runway and the weather supports it, he may make closed traffic and land. At the time he decides to make closed traffic instead of go missed he will no longer recieve IFR seperation. Try to forget anything about a specific point (i.e. the gate, the threshold, etc.). When the pilot says we need to "go around" for whatever reason, the controller response should be what do you want to do. In other words, Do you want to go missed and shoot the approach again? Do you want to fly to Boston? Do you want to make 360s over a field for the next hour? What do you want to do? If the pilot responds, "We would like to remain in the pattern", IFR seperation ends, period. The IFR portion ends when the aircraft reaches the airport and IFR seperation is no longer required (i.e. landing, entering the pattern, cancelling IFR).

Remember this: Controllers are not the police of the air. There is no such thing as, "An aircraft can't operate below the MIA/MVA...." Short of entering SUA, a pilot can do whatever he wants to do. Our job is to provide seperation as long as they operate within the confines of our system. If they want to fly below the MVA, thats fine. They won't get IFR services but they can do it. If they want to work the pattern, thats Ok too! This is no different than if the MVA was 6000ft and an aircraft wanted to dip down to 3000 for a minute and then come back up. It is more than fine. The controller will say "IFR seperation will not be provided", the aircraft will dip down and when it resurfaces, IFR will continue.

Ok.

I think we are agreeing.

So long as the pilots understand they are VFR, then I agree. My only comment to add would be that you can't assume they are VFR just because they elect to stay in the pattern, it needs to be stated, and read back...

C- go around traffic on the runway, do you want to do the missed approach or stay in the pattern?
p- stay in the pattern
c- cancellation received, maintain vfr, make right traffic yada yada yada...

That’s cool you guys have the ability to do that. After thinking further about it I remember my buddy at CLE saying they keep planes with the tower sometimes and run them back around. If I remember correctly I'm pretty sure they are Class B as well. Oh well...if the economy and airlines keep cutting back we may have big enough holes one day to slap go arounds in as well.

There is maybe on average 1 possibly 2 November callsign planes per shift and they are just trying to get their Citation X or G5 in and out as quickly as possible without spilling the champagne in the back. If they did ask for closed traffic the eruption of laughter would probably be on the frequency.

For a center puke you nailed the reaction in the tower.

this is talking about a controller canceling the IFR for the aircraft PRIOR to the clearance limit. you can't do that. however, when the pilot reaches their clearance limit (ie full stop or touch and go but NOT missed approach) then the aircraft is no longer IFR because there is no more to the clearance for him to fly. just verify with the pilot that they are canceling though.

u can't just cancel the guys IFR prior to the clearance limit because you know it'll be a pain in the a$$ to continue his IFR separation. ie. N123 is over DAS on the daisetta seven arrival. the controller says, "N123 your IFR is now cancelled, squawk VFR and maintain VFR." cannot do that.

for instance:
N123 is cleared to HOU airport as filed. N123 is cleared for the ILS approach to HOU. after the ILS, N123 does a touch and go and wants to stay in the pattern. N123 has reached his clearance limit of HOU, so you verify with him his intentions. technically there is no where for N123 to go IFR, because he's already reached his clearance limit.

centerpuke was talking about a through clearance. it is much different than this last scenario. here's the through clearance.
N123 is cleared to HOU airport via MAF..DAS.DAS7 remarks MAF/D0+15 T/G . N123 gets airborne and asks center to stop at MAF for 15 minutes doing touch and go. "N123 cleared through midland to hobby". N123 is VFR while stopped at MAF. when N123 is done at MAF he calls center back and say he's out of MAF and going to HOU. "N123 leaving 5,000 cleared direct daisetta, daisetta seven arrival, maintain 15,000." this through clearance, although similar to the original question is no where near the same thing

btw...i guarantee 95% of controllers will NEVER see a through clearance in their life. probably even more rare than a contact approach. but anyway...

tower: N123 extend downwind, follow (VFR) bonanza 3 mile final, report traffic in sight.
pilot: yeah but tower i'm IFR and he's VFR, u need to break him out so i don't have to extend an extra mile to follow him. i'm the priority.
tower: N123, no your not, extend downwind, i'll call your base, your now number 3 follow arrow 5 mile final, report traffic in sight.

see what i'm saying?

the note above is referring to the idea that just because a pilot does not cancel his IFR prior to his clearance limit, he does not automatically receive priority over VFR aircraft just because of his IFR status alone. you don't blindly break those VFR guys out to clear the way for IFR traffic just because of the IFR over VFR priority.


that one is easy.
approach: N123 turn right heading 180, vector for ILS runway 36L.
pilot: approach, this vector is taking us away from the airport.
approach: N123, vector is for VFR traffic on the practice ILS approach ahead of you.

if they are adjusting their flight path, it's because approach (or center i suppose) is turning them out of the way for something. anything. they won't be adjusting their flight path on an IFR ILS when they are already established on final and too close to the approach gate to safely turn them out and then back in.

approach is still providing terrain and obstruction clearance for the aircraft.

this adjusting their flight path is mainly aimed at the IFR visual approach aircraft that thinks they don't need to extend downwind to follow a VFR aircraft on 2 mile final because they are still IFR and the other guy is VFR. this is simply just not true. a visual approach aircraft is still IFR but they will get sequenced to the VFR tower pattern as any other aircraft would regardless of their IFR or VFR status.

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it ends at the clearance limit.

lets say N123 is filed RNO..FMG..YERIN..OAL.VR123 remarks VFR after OAL
N123 is cleared to coaldale (OAL) as filed.
the IFR portion ends at coaldale (clearance limit) and AUTOMATICALLY becomes VFR at OAL.

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