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IFR in the traffic pattern

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  #1 (permalink)  
     11-12-2008, 05:25 PM
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Default IFR in the traffic pattern

How do you deal with an IFR arrival on a published instrument approach, who has to go around for whatever reason?

Do you make them execute a missed approach and hand them off to departure or overlaying ATC, or do you tell them do go around and then keep them in the traffic pattern and sequence them with VFR traffic?

Do you consider the circling approach option viable when they are circling to the same runway they just tried to land on?

When you decide to give them a circling approach after the go around so you don't have to switch them back to departure, how do you get around the requirement for approving circling approaches that says you have to include the approval in the approach clearance?

If you keep them in the pattern and they did not cancel IFR, what rule are you using to ensure IFR separation with terrain or obstructions below the MVA and without radar vectors, or a published route, airway, or instrument approach?

If you are assuming* that they are now providing their own separation from terrain and or obstructions because they are in the traffic pattern, are you still providing IFR separation from other IFR and SVFR aircraft?

Why is it not necessary to provide IFR separation between the IFR aircraft in the traffic pattern, and terrain and obstructions, but it is necessary to provided IFR separation between the IFR in the traffic pattern and other IFR aircraft?

At what point exactly do you consider they went from IFR to VFR when they stay in the pattern?

If its legit for IFR aircraft, that have been cleared by approach control for a published instrument approach, to fly around the pattern when the weather is VMC, off the published approach, not on a published route or airway, below the MVA, providing their own separation from terrain and obstructions, what is the point of a visual approach?
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     11-12-2008, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

this a take home test ??
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     11-12-2008, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

first off...whoa! 3 question maximum per post. LOL. just kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
How do you deal with an IFR arrival on a published instrument approach, who has to go around for whatever reason?
u tell them to execute the missed approach, tell approach, and then ship them back to approach. usually in that order, depending on your LOA with approach/ARTCC

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
Do you make them execute a missed approach and hand them off to departure or overlaying ATC, or do you tell them do go around and then keep them in the traffic pattern and sequence them with VFR traffic?
the first part...missed. a visual approach is the only approach with no missed approach segment. thus, on a visual approach u would treat them like any other VFR and turn them to the downwind and sequence with other VFR traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
Do you consider the circling approach option viable when they are circling to the same runway they just tried to land on?
i definitely do not! the circling minimum is usually higher than the ILS/straight-in minimum so if they went miss from the straight-in it is probably illegal to try and do a circle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
When you decide to give them a circling approach after the go around so you don't have to switch them back to departure, how do you get around the requirement for approving circling approaches that says you have to include the approval in the approach clearance?
u don't do it at all...so no circling instructions requirement to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
If you keep them in the pattern and they did not cancel IFR, what rule are you using to ensure IFR separation with terrain or obstructions below the MVA and without radar vectors, or a published route, airway, or instrument approach?
this is exactly why you send them on the miss. their allowed the missed approach, their IFR, they did not cancel with u. so u owe the pilot terrain and obstruction clearance...thus issue the missed approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
If you are assuming* that they are now providing their own separation from terrain and or obstructions because they are in the traffic pattern, are you still providing IFR separation from other IFR and SVFR aircraft?
IFR separation between IFR and IFR/SVFR continues until either the pilot provides visual separation, the controller provides visual separation, the pilot cancels IFR, or the controller cancels the IFR on behalf of the pilot. the only times i can think of that a controller would cancel the IFR automatically for the pilot is if the aircraft is on initial or the aircraft lands. an IFR flight plan automatically cancels when the aircraft is at the initial point.

there are rules for IFR vs SVFR to be much less, however it gets complicated and i'd rather not get into it right here. plus, you'll need a LOA with the aircraft involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
Why is it not necessary to provide IFR separation between the IFR aircraft in the traffic pattern, and terrain and obstructions, but it is necessary to provided IFR separation between the IFR in the traffic pattern and other IFR aircraft?
it is absolutely necessary to provide terrain and obstruction clearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
At what point exactly do you consider they went from IFR to VFR when they stay in the pattern?
when the pilot says these exact words or something very similar, "tower, N12345 is canceling IFR and request closed traffic"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
If its legit for IFR aircraft, that have been cleared by approach control for a published instrument approach, to fly around the pattern when the weather is VMC, off the published approach, not on a published route or airway, below the MVA, providing their own separation from terrain and obstructions, what is the point of a visual approach?
the visual approach is in lieu of all u just said in this question. you can't do closed traffic off of a instrument approach that you've been cleared for. if the wx is VMC and you don't want to have to be vectored around and do the missed approach in case u miss the landing then do the visual approach. otherwise, instrument approach = missed approach procedure if u go miss. visual approach = closed traffic if u go miss.

frankly, i wonder what makes u think the scenario of an IFR aircraft that's been cleared for the ILS, that goes missed, is allowed to just do closed traffic to reattempt landing...AND continue to be IFR. do not do it! it's illegal.
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     11-12-2008, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

Thanks for the great post, and tons of response.

I would appreciate others input as well...
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     11-13-2008, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

For all instrument approaches there is a missed approach procedure which needs to be executed if the a/c cant make his landing... that is what Approach is expecting the a/c to do. Other than that the pilot can cancel IFR with you and enter the traffic pattern if that is what he wants. Visual Approaches have no missed approach procedure like Roddy said.
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     11-13-2008, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

In a class B airport they either say they are going around or you tell them to go around then you give them a heading(s) and altitude(s) to ensure IFR separation and then you hand them off to departure. They turn them back to the radar downwind when able.

Class C, Class D and maybe even TRSA airports are probably all handled differently. At a class D airport I worked at we had certain headings and altitudes to assign if the aircraft went missed inside the marker vs outside the marker and none were the published missed.
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     11-13-2008, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo zulu View Post
For all instrument approaches there is a missed approach procedure which needs to be executed if the a/c cant make his landing... that is what Approach is expecting the a/c to do. Other than that the pilot can cancel IFR with you and enter the traffic pattern if that is what he wants. Visual Approaches have no missed approach procedure like Roddy said.
You might be surprised how often this is happening. In VMC weather conditions, the pilot comes over on the ILS (IFR flight plan), and requests with tower a touch and go, then back out for another ILS approach. The controller sequences them to an intersecting runway with the VFR traffic, usually for wind, and clears them for the option.

After the option, they put them on whatever departure heading and alt. is in the LOA for that runway, or whatever was additionally coordinated with departure. When challenged, the controllers all say the same thing, they are VFR when in the pattern.

I agree with Roddy, don't do it, it's totally wrong!
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     11-13-2008, 10:01 AM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGEDCABMONKEY View Post
When challenged, the controllers all say the same thing, they are VFR when in the pattern.
an aircraft is IFR until it either lands or cancels. the controller in question needs to ask the question. you can easily get into a legal pissing match if u want, which is sometimes what i did at one of my last places.

pilot: we'd like a touch and go (their on an IFR approach)
u: what's your intentions to follow?
pilot: we'd like another ILS
u: do u plan on doing that IFR or VFR?

if pilot says IFR ILS
pilot: we'd like to do that IFR
u: i have your request
now ask approach if they want to accommodate. if yes, then query a heading and altitude (if not already specified in an LOA). if no, tell the pilot that.
u: approach says unable IFR practice ILS, say intentions
pilot: were IFR and we plan to stay IFR for more approaches
u: you've reached your clearance limit with this touch and go, i don't have any subsequent flight plans, suggest u full stop and file a new one with flight service. (extreme but u catch my drift)

if pilot says VFR ILS
u: roger
u: (pilot on the go after touch and go) maintain VFR (do whatever approach or LOA says with his squawk)

bottom line: u can't cancel IFR for the pilot whenever u damn well please.
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Site Supporter      11-13-2008, 10:11 AM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

Quote:
Originally Posted by archie_league View Post
In a class B airport they either say they are going around or you tell them to go around then you give them a heading(s) and altitude(s) to ensure IFR separation and then you hand them off to departure. They turn them back to the radar downwind when able.
In Class B, depending on what final has going on I have kept 737s or whatever was going around in my traffic pattern..just had them enter the downwind and asked if they could keep the field in site....on the other hand, I have also radar vectored the aircraft myself back around for another approach.....I only get to do that when final isn't that busy...
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     11-13-2008, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: IFR in the traffic pattern

Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
In Class B, depending on what final has going on I have kept 737s or whatever was going around in my traffic pattern..just had them enter the downwind and asked if they could keep the field in site...
but your talking someone that was on the visual though, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnGnome View Post
on the other hand, I have also radar vectored the aircraft myself back around for another approach.....I only get to do that when final isn't that busy...
u must have some sweet radar up in the cab. no more stinkin BRITE/DBRITE. u are working off of STARS?
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