Wake Turbulence Radar/Twr

I fully understand where you are coming from, but as I have said, my intent is to make people informed.

Now, knowing what you do about tower displays, how do you react to an order from an ATC manager who says that tower display is to be used for separation purposes? If it were me, I would want something written that I can use as evidence in the case something (God forbid) should happen. An SOP, or LOA would do, but in lieu of that I would ask for a letter.

We all must remember that part of the game we and the managers are playing is a liability game. Unless you are willing to put your job in jeopardy, do your best to keep the liability off your back, and resident on the FAA's managers. And be sure you have a paper trail when push-comes-to-shove, because FAA managers have been shown to be liars.

Good luck, my friend. Thank you for the stimulating discussion.



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I don't care if the scope was certified by AF people or not. I don't really care what AF says about anything. It usually takes those guys 8 to 10 tries to fix anything.

If my procedures, and ATM say use it, I'm using it. If the ATM someday has to answer questions about the radar certification, that's his/her problem.

Again I say if your SOP says you have to provide radar service from the tower, then you need the 4 miles (at threshold). AND you have to attend RTF before you do it (unless your exempted from RTF from your hiring pool)...

FAAO 7210.3 Facility Operation and Administration

10-5-3. FUNCTIONAL USE OF CERTIFIED TOWER RADAR DISPLAYS

a. At towers combined with full radar approach control facilities where controllers rotate between the approach control and the tower, CTRDs may be used by local controllers for any terminal radar function provided their ability to satisfy FAA's air traffic responsibilities regarding the aircraft operating on the runways or within the surface area for which the tower has responsibility is not impaired. The conditions and/or limitations for the radar usage shall be specified by a facility directive.

b. At towers combined with full radar approach control facilities where controllers do not rotate between the approach control and the tower, or at towers not combined with full radar approach control facilities, CTRDs may be used by local controllers for the following functions:

c. To determine an aircraft's identification, exact location, or spatial relationship to other aircraft.

NOTE
This authorization does not alter visual separation procedures. When employing visual separation, the provisions of FAAO JO7110.65, Air Traffic Control, para7-2-1, Visual Separation, apply.

d. To provide aircraft with radar traffic advisories.

e. To provide a direction or suggested headings to VFR aircraft as a method for radar identification or as an advisory aid to navigation.

f. To provide information and instructions to aircraft operating within the surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

g. To ensure separation between successive departures, between arrivals and departures, and between overflights and departures within the surface area for which the tower has responsibility provided:

1 There is no airspace delegated to the tower;

(a) The local controllers have radar training and certification commensurate with their radar duties;

(b) A LOA, approved by the respective Terminal Operations Service Area Office, exists with the IFR facility having control jurisdiction which authorizes the specific radar function and prescribes the procedures to be used;

(c) The LOA prescribes the process for a transition to nonradar procedures or the suspension of separation authority in the event of a radar outage;

(d) The procedures for giving and receiving radar handoffs or pointouts do not impair the local controller's ability to satisfy FAA's air traffic responsibilities regarding the aircraft operating on the runways or within the surface area for which the tower has responsibility; and

(e) The procedures for ensuring radar separation do not require the tower to provide radar vectors.

h. At locations where uncertified tower displays are in use, the services and phraseology set forth in FAAO JO 7110.65, Air Traffic Control, Chapter 5, Radar, shall not be utilized. Uncertified displays shall be used only as an aid to assist controllers in visually locating aircraft or in determining their spatial relationship to known geographical points.

i. Operational applications of tower radar displays other than those outlined in subparas a and b, and/or the delegation of airspace to a tower require a staff study as prescribed in para2-1-15, Authorization for Separation Services by Towers.

At this point, I really don't care what you think of AF. Ignore them at your own peril.

As to the rest, that's already been argued, and I stand by my words. And I'll argue them with anyone at any level (already been there and done that).

To my knowledge, no controller has ever been disciplined for using a non "AF certified" tower radar display after they were required by facility directives to use it.

So whatever peril might exist in your world, it's clear that is does not exist in ours.

Well, in my 32 years, I have seen it. And not only controllers, but supervisors who told them to use it also.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

i don't know why this reminded me of a bumper sticker i've seen, but it does. it has no bearing on this conversation at all.

"if u don't believe in God, u better be right"

__________________

I could paraphrase that this way:

"if u believe in management good will, u better be right."



I've seen what is considered good management, and also definitely bad management. You will never see me trusting any of them with my livelihood. If for no other reason, because sometimes things happen.

Dale,
Do you have, know where can be found, the documentation to support your statement that no Tower Radar Displays can be certified? Going along with the basic rule of thumb that you don't believe anything that comes out of anyone's mouth (or keyboard) until you see it in writing (official document). This would be most helpful in this discussion and at facilities that combine approach functions to the tower at night.

As to the original question in this posting. You don't have to tell the trailing small to maintain visual separation unless the small is operating under IFR rules since Visual separation is a method of IFR Separation. However if the small is VFR and you tell them to extend down wind, report MD-80 on final in sight, small reports the MD-80 insight, follow the MD-80 caution wake turbulence, cleared to land, you're done.

I just beleive in one less god than you do...

When/Where? I talked to some of the AF guys at FWA the other day...