Visual Approach IFR Cancellation

bigrex81 Rookie Oak Harbor, WA

It seems that we all agree that the aircraft will enter the tower downwind unless otherwise instructed. I guess my question is this: Do I have to get an IFR cancellation before the aircraft turns downwind? All the RADAR folks that I work with say that I have to get a cancellation before turning. References to manuals would be appreciated.

joecoolinsc Rookie Spartanburg, SC

Rex said: "All the RADAR folks say..."

What are their references?

IFR separation must be applied unless the aircraft cancels. How the aircraft enters the pattern is irrelevant as long as separation is being applied.

Rex, do you work in a VFR tower or an up/down TRACON or what?

Maybe these "RADAR folks" are telling you that to make their job easier.

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

Rex, I'm a radar person, and I'm telling you that they do not have to cancel IFR to fly the traffic pattern . . . now you've had radar people tell you both ways

We can't post a reference to a rule that doesn't exist. It's not your QA person telling you this, is it? I've heard a lot of stories lately about QAs and ATMs making up rules contrary to the .65 (we had a sup here who insisted that it would be a deal if a small flew less than 5 miles behind a heavy, even if he didn't fly within 2500' of the heavy's flight path (say, the small departed runway 29 and the heavy then departed runway 11 and became airborne less than 5 miles away from the small) . . . implying that the heavy's wake turbulence shot out behind it, at the speed of light, at that, for 5 miles . . . but that's another discussion).

In any case, right from what you posted, Rex, there is nothing that says an IFR has to cancel before flying the traffic pattern.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

not true.

u can definitely send an IFR (instrument approach or visual approach) guy around because of runway separation. that doesn't mean he's now VFR because he was sent around. the same IFR may not even get the published missed approach. the published miss may be something like "runway heading until 3000, then right turn to XXX VOR, climb to 4000 and hold", but your tower/approach LOA may say IFR go arounds will be issued "TR heading 280 climb and maintain 5000".

the fact of the matter is...if a visual approach goes around they are still IFR. u treat them as any other go-around. depending on the place your at and the situation that could mean they fly a LOA climb-out of ie "TR heading 280 climb and maintain 5000". if the pilot wants to do closed traffic and just land, now u have to ask him if he is canceling IFR or not. if not, then on to the 280 heading and 5000 he goes. of course there's ways around it. u could "vector" the guy back around or approach could allow u to issue another visual approach to the guy if he wants to stay IFR and doesn't want to be resequenced all the way out. there's different things u can legally do. but do not cancel someones IFR without it being legal. a go-around does not mean an automatic IFR cancellation.

bottom line...land, overhead initial pattern, cancel IFR. i can't think of too many other cases that the IFR is canceled.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

after thinking a little further. i've worked a tower where we had signatories that stated their IFR was automatically canceled at 2 mile final because they usually wanted practice approaches. in that case when they were on the go we told them to "TR heading 090, maintain 4000, maintain VFR" because it was in an LOA. if they didn't want an auto-cancel then they had to tell us prior to 2 mile final and they couldn't do IFR practice approaches unless approach approved it.

joecoolinsc Rookie Spartanburg, SC

Dang Roddy! TMI buddy! (nothing personal) A lot of what you had to say probably doesn't apply to Rex. It's all dependent on his local LOA/SOP.

And aircraft entering the overhead are only automatically canceled at towered airports.

bigrex81 Rookie Oak Harbor, WA

I'm a tower guy in the Navy, but we do have our own TRACON. Basically my question arose because my Radar guys kept insisting I had to get an IFR cancellation before I turned aircraft downwind. Thanks for all the posts from everyone, it helps!

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

lmao...true. i've been told many many times that i ramble. even worse i ramble myself right off the topic being discussed. i'm surprised your the first to notice my random non-sense.

true. but if they go to the overhead at a non-towered airport then they have to initiate a cancellation of their IFR before they even start the maneuver. or after landing...but i don't know many people that will approve an overhead maneuver if their gonna cancel on the ground after landing. don't ask why but it seems to be the case everywhere i've worked.

NOTE-
Aircraft operating to an airport without a functioning control tower must initiate cancellation of the IFR flight plan prior to executing the overhead maneuver or after landing.

joecoolinsc Rookie Spartanburg, SC

Rex, I understand the confusion. This issue comes up often and could stand clarification in the .65

In a nutshell... If he cancels he's your baby to do with as you please. If he doesn't, control responsibility still belongs to approach control.

Hope this helps.

Max Power Senior Member

the tower can seperate IFR aircraft visually, they dont need 3 miles. All they need to do is look and go, yup those two wont hit.