VFR-On-Top Procedures

mklatval · Posted: 07-02-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATCinWI

Reminds me of a time when the ground visibility was 2 miles, but the pilot was overhead and could see the airport, but wouldn't ask for a special VFR. It was a little rediculous how far it went. "N12345, there's no special time we take a special weather observation" and "We had an aircraft get in with special VFR just a few minutes ago".

He still didn't say the magic words. Fortunately, the visibility happened to increase to 3 miles for a few minutes and he was able to land. I love playing the game.

That game is definitely against the rules, you are not allowed to solicit special VFR. Still funny though. I'm definitely in the camp that thinks you should never solicit an OTP aircraft to cancel.

ATCinWI · Posted: 07-02-2009, 02:50 PM

I didn't solicit a SVFR. "N12345, would you like to do a SVFR?" is soliciting a SVFR. Likewise, saying "N12345, report IFR cancellation" is not a solicitation and is a necessary instruction in the IFR world. On the other hand, "N12345, can you cancel IFR now?" would be illegal.

FM_Weasel · Posted: 07-04-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecoolinsc

Even most VFR aircraft will advise prior to changing altitude without being instructed to. But you can assign them altitudes or use the latter phraseology on them too.

If you assign a hard altitude, doesn't that remove them from OTP status and require standard IFR separation?

mklatval · Posted: 07-05-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATCinWI

I didn't solicit a SVFR. "N12345, would you like to do a SVFR?" is soliciting a SVFR. Likewise, saying "N12345, report IFR cancellation" is not a solicitation and is a necessary instruction in the IFR world. On the other hand, "N12345, can you cancel IFR now?" would be illegal.

Difference of opinion, in my book "do you have a special request?" and statements like that will get you in trouble.

joecoolinsc · Posted: 07-05-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FM_Weasel

If you assign a hard altitude, doesn't that remove them from OTP status and require standard IFR separation?

Negative. Nothing prevents you from assigning a fixed altitude, or requesting the pilot to advise prior to changing altitude.

Even if the aircraft were purely VFR there is nothing wrong with assigning a fixed altitude.

Special VFR is the only procedure I can think of that restricts the assignment of a fixed altitude.

NUWATC · Posted: 07-05-2009, 12:44 PM

For a clearance you need calls sign, destination, route, and altitude. The only thing VFR about a OTP clearance is the altitude portion. The a/c is still required to fly the Route given. Being OTP guarantees the a/c service, where as being vfr you are on a workload permitting basis. It reduces the amount of seperation atc must provided to you, so that you dont get jerked around as much, and it allows you to fly below the MVA's. Im not sure what facilitys some of you are working on where it is common proceedure to say "report on top, report canceling" could get yourself into some trouble like that if something went down, no pun intended.

Matty13 · Posted: 07-05-2009, 06:59 PM

An OTP clearance also lets the aircraft travel beyond navaid limitations, which will be helpful for you enroute n00bs.

ATCinWI · Posted: 07-05-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NUWATC

Im not sure what facilitys some of you are working on where it is common proceedure to say "report on top, report canceling" could get yourself into some trouble like that if something went down, no pun intended.

Not just directed at NUWATC, but to everyone that thinks "report cancelling IFR" is not legal, or proper, or whatever . . . what do you say to an aircraft when you change him to the advisory frequency at a satellite airport? If it includes the phrase "report IFR cancellation . . .", why is that legal, but "report IFR cancellation" to an aircraft climbing to VFR on top is not legal?

Asking an aircraft to report his IFR cancellation is not a solicitation and does not obligate the pilot to cancel.

NUWATC · Posted: 07-06-2009, 12:01 AM

Because when an IFR a/c lands at an uncontrolled airport he is required to cancel his Flight plan, where as asking for a OTP clearance is in no way asking to cancel instruments.

ATCinWI · Posted: 07-06-2009, 01:04 PM

Hmm, you better call AOV on SoCal TRACON and SMO Tower. The LOA between SCT and SMO says that aircraft requesting an IFR to VFR-on-top shall be instructed to "report reaching VFR conditions on top and cancelling IFR" during clearance delivery. I'm sure it's that way with many other LOAs and SOPs, but SMO was the only tower in SoCal that I worked at.

VFR-On-Top Procedures

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