Weather avoidance for IFR a/c ?

RadarContact Scope Dope High Desert TRACON

Don't know if this was the right place to ask this, but I was wondering what other people's technique for deviating a/c for wx is. At what point do you begin initiating vectors around radar derived weather.. if ever? Controlling fighters seems to be hit or miss.. they often want to deviate off of a vector I've given to avoid a cell, to then fly right through it! I'm to the point where I won't vector around the weather, and just let them ask for a deviation.

Furthermore, any center controllers have insight to how they route the Jet routes to avoid weather?

DairyCreamer Senior Member Elsewhere

At ZAB, we rarely initiate an explicit vector around/through the weather.

Our phraseology is "N12345, deviation approved left/right of course, advise when able to proceed direct XYZ." It's sloppy, messy phraseology that the pilots never read back correctly, but since it's .65 phraseology, we get hung by QA if we don't say it just right.

To boot, pilots also don't advise anything, they just turn direct the fix you mentioned... something we as controllers think they should do anyway, but the phraseology above technically makes that illegal for them to do. I'm sure with ATSAP we're getting plenty of controllers trying to fight that phraseology.

I'm sure the terminal world is different, and even ZAB may differ from other centers. The .65 phraseology is the same, but our sectors are relatively wide open, so pilots can meander this way and that as they please for the most part (major exception being WSMR).

Of course, if there are fixes out there that I know will help with pilots getting around weather, I will attempt to clear them via a route with those fixes early on to minimize deviations, but I usually end up having to spit out the weather deviation phraseology anyway as they get closer and the blowoffs or holes have grown/filled in.

~Nate

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

Terminal-only experience here. I don't try to vector around weather for the same reasons the first poster posted. I'll advise the pilot of any weather I see on my scope and ask them to advise if they need to deviate. If they do, I'll say "deviation left/right of course approved, maintain (altitude). Advise when you're able to proceed direct "fix"/able to accept a vector to the northeast" etc . . .

Since my airspace is relatively small when compared to a center sector, if they haven't told me that they're back on course, I will verify if they are or aren't so I can work it out with the next controller, then switch the pilot.

For the most part, I leave the responsibility up to the pilot, advise them of everything I see, and do what I can to accommodate requests to get around it. Unfortunately, our ASR-7 antenna isn't very good at seeing weather.

RadarContact Scope Dope High Desert TRACON

Thanks for the responses...

Dairy, I was glad to hear from you, I was thinking of sending a PM to see what you guys did up there, especially since I know the weather you and I see are quite the same

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

Yeah weather is so tricky sometimes because the pilots see different weather radar than we do. I have seen planes fly through an area of precip depicted as level 5 on my scope to avoid a level 2, or fly through a Level 3 to avoid something I can't see. Also you try to work off of what you already know to handle aircraft. If you know the last 10 arrivals have deviated around a cell probably best to plan ahead and not vector the 11th towards it (common sense really) After awhile you also realize that certain airlines have different requirements for weather avoidance and that will help a little to recognize this. NWA has earned the nickname "Never Wet Airlines" for good reason. Although the ballsiest "pathfinder" I have seen in the last few months was a NWA A320. Didn't do us much good in the pathfinder department because a report of "moderate to borderline severe turbulence" is not a safe "path".

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Like ATCinWI I work in the approach enviroment, but what I do is issue the weather, ask if they need help deviating around it. If they want to work theirselves around it, I'll say deviation left or right of course approved, and I'll tell them to maintain an altitude.

It is important to "NEVER" use the phrase "Deviate As Necessary", this allows the pilot to turn, climb, or descend, which can result in something very bad happening.

Another important technique to use when dealing with weather. Always use vertical separation, because with everyone deviating left and right only vertical ensures that they will not find each other.

GoTigersGo Rookie ZJX

N1234 scattered areas of moderate to extreme precipitation along your route of flight, advise if you need to deviate.

And when they request deviations: N1234 deviations up to 20 degrees left/right of course is approved, when able proceed direct XYZ.

DairyCreamer Senior Member Elsewhere

QA hates you... poor poor phraseology there on all counts :-D

~Nate

SnowAviation Senior Member Escondido, CA

First of all QA hates everybody, secondly I believe it's AVS now.

GoTigersGo Rookie ZJX

Ha ha probably.