Taxi Instructions

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

Okay, please read this whole post.

I am not requesting "what I do is..." or "what we do at our facility..." etc.

I merely want to know y'all's interpretation of the rule and how you apply it.

Please, when you read the following question, read the .65 first, then post.

Of course, all of the above are just suggestions, and I'm sure some of you won't honor the request, but here it goes anyway:

1. Runway 36L and 36R are in use, they're the only runways on the airport.
2. All feet remaining for intersection departures are published.
3. The intersections available for departure are A2, A3, A4
4. The parallel taxiway to get to the intersections is taxiway A
5. The intersections are weighted and approved for up to and including Group
VI aircraft.
6. There is no construction or any other situation precluding the use of intersections.
7. Weather is VFR
8. The appropriate signage is posted at all intersections.
9. The aircraft to be taxied is NOT military.
10. There is no other aircraft movement on the airport.
11. There is no aircraft on final.
12. There is no vehicle movement on the airport.
13. It is between sunrise and sunset.

I think that about covers all and any points y'all may bring up.

With the above information provided,

When you taxi an aircraft to an intersection for an intersection departure (say a C310), what is the required phraseology?

Matty13 Senior Member

I thought you said the aircraft to be taxied is not military? OK, tell your civil C130 to "taxi to runway three six left at alpha one, seven thousand fifty feet remaining, hold short runway three six right." Just guessing of course at the desired intersection, feet remaining and whether you'd cross. If you have a local directive specifying the use of that particular intersection departure, you can omit the feet remaining. Just because the lengths are published doesn't mean the crew knows the remaining length, so if a directive is not in place an intersection departure can create a whole new set of tasks for an aircrew.

Sounds like you're having a phraseology battle. What are the arguments?

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

it's a (Cessna three ten) C310, not a C130... please check your dislexia... haha... j/k

Nevertheless, you're incorrect. Again, please review the .65 before posting.
(No it's not that I have my mind made up already, it's just that the phraseology you would use I know for a fact is incorrect).

It is indeed a phraseology thing I'm trying to figure out here. I don't know that there is a specific way to go about doing it: i.e. "taxi to runway 36R at
A2 via A", or if it could be "taxi to runway 36R via A, A2", etc.

btw: There is no "requirement" to issue the feet remaining to civilian aircraft. Whether or not the crew has to refigure anything is irrelevant, as they should either know the feet remaining or ask for the feet remaining.

Again, I know what I've "done", however after reviewing the .65 in great detail (FAA JO 7110.65 3-7), I find that I may either be "okay" in my technique, or that there may be a more correct way to go about doing things.

Yes, this is all according to the .65. Not what each of you does or practices.
I merely want to get your "interpretation" on what the .65 says.

There is no "argument," I just have a "I have to be right" complex.

And to add:

14. It doesn't matter whether or not you want to taxi the aircraft across a runway, or hold it short.

Matty13 Senior Member

OK, sorry. Dyslexia tripped me up, Twin Cessna no, Hercules yes, give feet remaining (barring directive, of course).

Are you asking for phraseology, or an interpretation of the joint order (not FAA anymore, just JO) says? The phraseology specified is for TIPH and takeoff clearances. So just tell the plane where you want it to go. It does seem to me that unless there are a ton of ways to get to A2, saying "via Alpha" is unnecessary.

Your "have to be right" complex implies that someone else must be wrong, probably not just me. What's their point?

RE stipulation #14, I was actually referring to whether you'd need to cross a runway to get to the desired runway, not whether to cross or hold short. Doesn't really matter anyway.

I guess the phraseology can also be "Runway 36L at A1 taxi." That was a change made some years back, and I always found that phraseology to be clumsy. If you start a transmission with "taxi" there's no doubt at any point what is to be done. If you specify a runway first, you could get any number of interruptions that can confuse the pilot.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

So, would I be wrong (technically) if I were to say "taxi to Runway 36L via A, A2"?

I've always said (at least ever since the requirement came to be that you have to issue the route) "taxi to runway 36L at A2 via A"....

But, after reading and over-anal-izing, I wondered if I would be wrong to say "taxi to runway 36L via A, A2"

I don't care if someone else is wrong or right...

I'm fine with thousands of different techniques, so long as they're all technically correct and I know them all... haha

Matty13 Senior Member

But, after reading and over-anal-izing, I wondered if I would be wrong to say "taxi to runway 36L via A, A2"
That clearance is a little vague. It sounds almost like you want the plane to back-taxi from A2. The destination specified is runway 36L, not 36L at A2. You specified that he had to take taxiway A2, which would require him to get to the intersection, but he may or may not be expecting an intersection departure.

On the other hand, if the ground destination is specified as "runway 36L at A2," there's no ambiguity at all.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

where do u want the airplane to taxi to? full length or the intersection?

full length: Twin Cessna 1234, taxi to runway 36L (or 36R) via A, A1.

intersection: Twin Cessna 1234, taxi to runway 36L at A2, via A.

this is assuming A1 is the full length taxiway. on your dare, i went to look up the exact phraseology for taxiing an aircraft to an intersection for departure. i could not find it. the only thing i found is the phraseology for authorizing an aircraft to TIPH at an intersection or issue takeoff clearance at an intersection.

nonetheless, prior to just reading the .65 i would've normally said:
intersection: Twin Cessna 1234, taxi to runway 36L (or 36R) at A2, intersection departure, via A.

xDGx Rookie New Mexico

Go Piper!
That's what I would've said

DOD_ATC Senior Member Chicago, IL

3-7-2. TAXI AND GROUND MOVEMENT OPERATIONS

b. When authorizing an aircraft to taxi to an assigned takeoff runway and hold short instructions are not issued, specify the runway preceded by ?taxi to,? and issue taxi instructions. This authorizes the aircraft to ?cross? all runways/taxiways which the taxi route intersects except the assigned takeoff runway. This does not authorize the aircraft to ?enter? or ?cross? the assigned takeoff runway at any point.

Full length (will not cross a runway)

"N12345 taxi to runway 36R via Alpha."

Intersection (will not cross a runway)

"N12345 taxi to runway 36R at A2 via alpha."

c. Specify the runway for departure, taxi instructions, and hold short restrictions when an aircraft will be required to hold short of a runway or other points along the taxi route.

Full length (WILL cross a runway)

"N12345 runway 36L, taxi via alpha, A1, hold short runway 36R."

Intersection (WILL cross a runway)

"N12345 runway 36L at A2, taxi via alpha, A2, hold short runway 36R."

Regarding the issuing distance remaining...

3-7-1. GROUND TRAFFIC MOVEMENT

c. Intersection departures may be initiated by a controller or a controller may authorize an intersection departure if a pilot requests. Issue the measured distance from the intersection to the runway end rounded ?down? to the nearest 50 feet to any pilot who requests and to all military aircraft, unless use of the intersection is covered in appropriate directives.

Matty13 Senior Member

NOt sure what you're trying to say, DOD. You just reinforcing what's been said?