Departure separation

AlphaAlpha Newcomer In the sand

Aircraft 1/heavy departs into the VFR pattern, staying in the VFR pattern.

Aircraft 2/heavy departs into the VFR pattern, staying in the VFR pattern.

A1 departs, what is the seperation between A1 and A2 from the approach end? 2 Minutes or 4 miles, both aircraft are staying in the closed pattern.

I understand the 2 minutes, but how do you apply 4 miles?

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

2 minutes. No questions. 4 miles is for radar separation. You can't apply radar spacing if they're staying in the tower's VFR pattern.

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

And once they're in the pattern: follow traffic, caution wake turbulence, cleared for the option.

AlphaAlpha Newcomer In the sand

I agree...I'm at a new facility where everyone is applying 4 miles and this at one point was holding me back in training because I'm applying 2 minutes. But after a discussion I won. However, the 4 miles is still being applied by most. Thanks

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

don't forget to apply visual separation.

jalvis81 Senior Member

This question cannot be deemed answered until MikeATC has posted his .02!

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

i wonder how u provide 4 miles in the VFR pattern. 2 minutes is the law as far as i'm concerned (provided same runway).

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

you can't provide 4 miles. According to 5-5-4 (I think that's the reference, in any case, it's in ch. 5), it states that the mileage is for aircraft operating directly behind the heavy...etc. However, a VFR pattern is not directly behind, so there is no way to apply 4 miles.

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

Well, technically, the .65 defines "directly behind" and "within 2500' of its flight path over the curvature of the earth", so in the pattern can still be 4 miles . . . BUT, it doesn't make any sense to do it that way since most towers can't provide radar separation to VFR traffic in the pattern. Just give the 2 minutes initially, then get the trailing aircraft to maintain visual with the lead aircraft and they can follow eachother around all day.

P_to_the_R Ruler of the Movement Area funkytown

end of thread!!!!