Request 7110.65 interpretations. 3-9-7 b. 5.

garlandatc Junior Member

Eventhough there may be acouple of different answers. For some of you this may be easy, I think it?s what one was taught initially. The question is in regards to 3-9-7 subpar b. 5.

"If action is initiated to reduce the separation between successive touch‐and‐go or stop‐and‐go operations, apply 3 minutes separation."

Expand on what this rule is requiring. If possible-Include examples!

Now for the tough part! Also, please provide reference to back up your post.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

say u have a small on a downwind for touch-and-go and a large departing prior to the small crossing the threshold. u need 3 minutes for the small on the downwind behind the large departure (the small is considered an intersection departure). instead of using the 3 minutes u can use visual separation. however, if u issue an instruction that reduces the pilots ability to use visual separation then u have to apply the full 3 minutes again. ie "make short approach", "start your base now", etc

this rule is the one your using to get around the 3 minutes.

.65 3-9-7-b-3

b. The 3-minute interval is not required when:
3. Successive touch-and-go and stop-and-go operations are conducted with a small aircraft following another small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft in the pattern, or a small aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. or a large aircraft departing the same runway, provided the pilot of the small aircraft is maintaining visual separation/spacing behind the preceding large aircraft. Issue a wake turbulence cautionary advisory and the position of the large aircraft.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

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garlandatc Junior Member

As I look at this it seems vague. Don’t you think that it would just say not to adjust the pattern? I do agree that an A/C should have every opportunity to fly a normal pattern and adjust flight to avoid wake. No question! What if action was taken to use 4,5, or 6 miles in this situation? I can not apply miles for intersection departures. Finally, 5 of b. is out of place as b. The 3-minute interval is not required when: is not supported grammatically or even in the same thought process when followed with subpar 5. Do you have anything to back up your answer? It may apply to the inability to apply miles vice minutes as it does with miles vs minutes application during same point same direction operations.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

No. I don't think it would just say not to adjust the pattern.

Example: if you have a cherokee on downwind and instruct him to maintain visual separation from a heavy departure, cool. But, let's say the cherokee extends his downwind too far. So you tell him to turn base. You have just taken action to reduce the "visual separation". You better be sure he doesn't cross the threshold before 3 minutes expires from the time the heavy rotates.

What if action was taken to use 4, 5, or 6 miles? You can't use mileage, period.

"the 3-minute interval is not required when:" is supported. As Roddy quoted, you can see it gives you the requirements that must be complied with before you can void out the 3-minute rule.

Do you have anything to back up your answer?: I believe Roddy's quote is backup enough.

your last statement is confusing. I'm rather slow when it comes to the books, so if you could treat me as a 4-year-old when explaining your point of view, that would be GREAT! Because, for real, your post is confusing, mainly the last part. I'm just not understanding.

garlandatc Junior Member

Its amasing but I do understand the point. How do feel about if able turn your base and the pilot complies.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

I wouldn't say it.

1. Why wouldn't he be able to?

2. If he cannot for whatever reason, he should advise.



Also, I still interpret that as a form or reducing the separation.

Reason:

saying "if able" is not necessary. The pilot is supposed to be able, regardless of the situation. By saying "if able" how is the pilot to know if you're going to apply the 3 minutes or not?

My point? If you say "if able" and the pilot complies, he may be thinking that you have the 3 minutes covered and there's not need to apply his own visual separation.

garlandatc Junior Member

In this case I may concur it to be of consequence to reiterate his visual separation requirements.