Operational Errors and Operational Deviations

oresama420 Newcomer

Hi,

As a new trainee at my facility (TRACON) I was just curious how operational errors/deviations are "found out about" I guess for lack of a better word, are you required to report them if you think one may have occurred? If you don't what happens? If you do not how will anyone know? Is it your supervisors job if they see one occur? Or is it someone's job to watch playback at the end of the day, and if so do they just pick a random sector at a random time to watch and check? How much gets replayed and re-listened to? Is there ALOT that goes unnoticed perhaps? I am just curious what the process is with regards to this if anyone or those of you who have experience know, any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks a lot in advance. -

oresama420 Newcomer

Ooops looks like I cant even get the spelling right for the title of my post, sorry about that lol how ironic......

irishcarbomb Moderator Houston, TX

not at a facility yet but isnt there a quality assurance dept?

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

there are many ways one could be found out.

1. in en route there's a "snitch". an alarm that goes off when 2 planes are closer than approved separation.
2. a pilot calls your facility or on frequency about a situation. an investigation ensues and an error is found.
3. a co-worker sees a situation that warrants management looking into a situation and finds an error.
4. a neighboring facility sees a situation that warrants management looking into a situation and finds an error.
5. joe shmoe is walking down the street and looks up to see 2 aircraft barely miss. they call ATC and it's looked into.
6. someone calls it on themselves. this is very important. the worse thing u can do is try to hide a deal. if u think u had one then make it known. if u get caught hiding an error it's grounds for firing.
7. an accident occurs.
8. a QA audit
9. millions of other ways to have a deal or one found out about.

disclaimer: now u just ATSAP it and move on. it's the same as calling a deal on yourself.

of course in the contract tower world there are no deals.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

as far as i know, the en route computers are the only ones with a "snitch". anyone know of another system that has a snitch patch. if STARS or DBRITE has one, i've never heard of it.

there is a QA department. they investigate it, but their office types so their not on the floor watching for it. they do have random audits looking for errors and such.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

I worked QA for several years, so I'm going to add to what Piper Posted.

How OE/OD's are found out:

1. Self Reported, to be honest if you think you screwed up you are better off saying something, than being caught in a random audit or being reported by someone else.

2. Someone else reports your OD/OE.

3. Pilot makes a complaint to management, and they investigate and discover your error.

4. As Piper states, the Enroute Snitch or Terminal Snitch alarms and rats you out.

5. QA finds your OE/OD during a random audit. Expect the fan to start spinning and for you to have to answer some serious questions, and possibly being accused of covering up an error.

6. Some non-controller in Washington discovers your OE/OD while conducting a random audit.

7. Joe blow riding as a passenger calls the FAA and says I saw two airplanes almost hit.

The days of educate rather than violate, and no harm no foul are "GONE", depending on the circumstances, management may try to fire you for covering up an OE. Most OD's result in a slap on the wrist and a sin no more lecture, unless you are having a lot of OD's.

OE's require a through investigation, and often the controller is treated as a criminal by management, instead of the priority being trying to discover what caused the OE and then educating, and taking steps to help prevent the error from occuring again.

I can't stress the importance of having your NATCA facility rep present before you start answering questions from management, and having your facrep review your personal statement that you may have to write up.

Everyone eventually will make a mistake and have an OD or OE, what is important is to be 100% honest, don't try to pass blame on someone else, if you screwed up, own up to it, your goal should be to discover the "breaks in the chain", and to prevent whatever occured from happening again (this should be managements goals too)!

There are three kinds of controllers, those that have had an error, those that will have an error, and those that are lying about having had an error.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

as a trainee, I suggest NOT reporting them if you value your career. Not that you SHOULDN'T (legally), but I see the hammer coming down if you do. Regardless if it's "nice" or "mean" or whatever adjective you wish to use... No one will say they'll do it to you (wash you out), but there's a good chance it may happen. If you see something, just point it out to the controller is my recommendation, especially if it involves a potential disaster (loss of separation)

Rosstafari Daaaang. /X

Just to add on some questions...

How often will another controller do this? Seems like there'd be some incentive not to... a not ratting others out kind of thing. As unsafe as it may be.

Is that very common?

Also, I don't think his question about it being on the trainer's bill has been answered yet. I was under the impression that if a trainee screws up, it's the trainer who gets the blame. Is that an overgeneralization?

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

it happens. not everyone will like everyone at your facility. especially a big facility. some facilities have different areas under the same roof, and they'll be "ratting" going on between areas.


NOT an overgeneralization. a trainer is 100% responsible for the position when plugged in with a trainee.

ATC HD Junior Member

Technically trainee's can't have deals on positions they aren't checked out on, the trainer bites that one. We've had a few deals while training was occurring and there was no recourse for the trainee, just the ojti. Even then the ojti got off pretty easy. By the way, the southern region does not participate in the atsap program yet so we can't call ourselves out through the program.

hd