"90 to initial"

AlexDN Newcomer AZ

I have a quick question that has come up at work, regarding the validity of this direction-of-flight portion of a traffic call.

When issuing a traffic call on an aircraft inbound for the overhead pattern from a 90 degree angle:

"Casino13, Traffic, 10 o'clock, 4 miles, 90 to initial, F-16, 4200"

or if the a/c has left the 90 degree track and has begun his turn to, but is not not established on, initial :

"Casino13, Traffic, 11 o'clock, 4 miles, 45 to initial, F-16, 4200"

I realize that this should only be issued to pilots familiar with the overhead pattern, and I have used it with base assigned a/c with no issue, but I want to get some more opinions from outside my facility.

Thanks,
Alex

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

It's an invalid traffic advisory. I understand the "common sense" and that some pilots may understand, but when issuing a radar traffic advisory, it should be stated as:

Casino13, Traffic, 11 o'clock, 4 miles, southbound, F-16, 4200"


southbound is also only 2 syllables, where as "90 to initial" is 6 syllables, and "45 to initial" is 7 syllables, which makes for more talking.

In other words, unless you're trying to sound cool, you should be saying the direction of flight as the .65 states and not wasting your breath on nonsense verbiage. I used to say it, don't get me wrong. But when you start throwing in extra information/numbers, pilots get confused. So by 90 to initial, is an extra thought than it should be.

If initial is lining up with the runway, and the runway is 36, then you figure initial is about a heading of 360. That means that if traffic is as 10 o clock 4 miles, 90 to initial, the traffic is about somewhere to the southeast or southwest (depending on direction of flight). Then, as a pilot, you have to calculate exactly what 90 to initial means.

Pilots know what direction they're flying. So if you were to say "southwestbound" or "southeastbound", it's easier for a pilot to figure out. Don't forget that if a pilot doesn't break that 45 degree plane, you can use opposite direction.

I gave you a lot of confusing information, it's probably because I've been drinking.

Bottom line: Keep it simple. Don't add extra shit unless it's beneficial. By complying with the .65 you're covering your ass. Doing that extra stuff only shows how cool you are and doesn't help your case in a phraseology audit or if a "Q" in the log should appear. Don't get fancy UNLESS it's beneficial to the user, period.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

We used to use a lot of superfluous traffic calls in the military:

high left base approaching low key
three quarter field break
in a max climb at departure end
blah blah blah

If you have the time and it sounds cool, then use it. i know I've used it. heck, i even thought i was cool sometimes while saying it. once i got into the civilian world though i dropped most of the junk. mostly because the civilians may not know what your talking about.

funny (kinda) story. i once issued traffic to a cherokee on an A4. whatever it was exactly, something like "traffic 1 o'clock, 3 miles, straight-in runway 30L, skyhawk, at 4 thousand". the cherokee student pilot came back with "i see a jet". military controllers sometimes forget that not everyone knows the nicknames of military jets. ie the A4 Skyhawk. i felt pretty silly telling him that the jet he sees is a Skyhawk, but not the Cessna type your used to seeing. point of the pointless story is make sure u know who your audience is.

redwing76 Rookie

Just a question, if silly I am sorry all my time , 25yrs, tower, 20 military, but 90 to initial is that a left 90 or a right 90 , in which case isn't the pilot having to check 180 degrees of horizon to spot said traffic.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

well, 90 to initial:

it depends on the runway configuration AND the position of the traffic at the time it was issued. Read my post below in its entirety, it sort of covers that, specifically the part about if the runway is 36, that's a heading of 360, and if there's traffic at 10 o clock, etc. (also factor in that initial is 3-5 mi. away), it actually makes sense to a certain degree.

For example, if the runway is 36, that's a heading of 360. if you're inbound from the south, and you're issued traffic as "traffic, 10 o'clock, 4 miles, 90 to initial, F16, 4200", you can see how that traffic is southwest of the airport heading southeastbound, assuming you're heading due northbound, or even the traffic is northwest of your position southeastbound.

As you can see though and what you led up to, the pilot may confuse him/herself by all these numbers and trying to figure out EXACTLY what you're saying. So they may be, in fact, checking 180 degrees of horizon just to be sure. Which is why I say drop the jibberish.

boondr PHD without a degree North of the Equator

not necessarily, the .65 states the 3rd part of a traffic advisory need only be "direction in which the aircraft is proceeding/and or relative movement"

so a description of the traffic as "right base" or "90 to initial" is acceptable, it need not be a cardinal direction.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

i've also used left/right base to initial. so the pilot knew to check the base turn for the traffic, but to know that traffic (for whatever reason) wanted to reenter a short initial instead of just doing a landing.

Wponcho Junior Member Orlando

I agree, especially with the last statement. Giving traffic to a civilian pilot on a military fast mover might be confusing to begin with. Sticking with the "well known" cardinal or direction (i.e..southbound, northbound, etc...) calls won't let you down. Of course you're assuming the pilot knows what initial is anyways. I'm use to saying, mid-field downwind, 4-mile extended right base, northeast abeam approach, teardrop, etc...

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Keep it short, concise, and by the book. Using non standard phraselogy will eventually bite you.

Traffic F16, 12 o clock, 5 miles, 2,300, southbound, if you want to add, for the overhead to Runway 18, that lets the pilot know what the traffic is going to do.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

2-1-21. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES

Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima. Where no separation minima applies, such as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment their proximity warrants it. Provide this service as follows:

a. To radar identified aircraft:

1. Azimuth from aircraft in terms of the 12-hour clock, or

2. When rapidly maneuvering aircraft prevent accurate issuance of traffic as in 1 above, specify the direction from an aircraft's position in terms of the eight cardinal compass points (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, and NW). This method shall be terminated at the pilot's request.

3. Distance from aircraft in miles.

4. Direction in which traffic is proceeding and/or relative movement of traffic.

NOTE-
Relative movement includes closing, converging, parallel same direction, opposite direction, diverging, overtaking, crossing left to right, crossing right to left.

5. If known, type of aircraft and altitude.

REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-21, Description of Aircraft Types.

PHRASEOLOGY-
TRAFFIC, (number) O'CLOCK,

or when appropriate,

(direction) (number) MILES, (direction)-BOUND and/or (relative movement),

and if known,

(type of aircraft and altitude).

or

When appropriate,

(type of aircraft and relative position), (number of feet) FEET ABOVE/BELOW YOU.

If altitude is unknown,

ALTITUDE UNKNOWN.

EXAMPLE-
“Traffic, eleven o'clock, one zero miles, southbound, converging, Boeing Seven Twenty Seven, one seven thousand.”
“Traffic, twelve o'clock, one five miles, opposite direction, altitude unknown.”
“Traffic, ten o'clock, one two miles, southeast bound, one thousand feet below you.”


Given the examples, the traffic advisories must be used in those manners. "90 to initial" is not "relative". Relative means "in relation to something else." In this case, it's relative to the aircraft's position.

As in the examples, the "relative" information is "converging", "opposite direction", and "one thousand feet below you." It's all relative to the pilot receiving the traffic. "90 to initial" in no way is covered by the "relative" portion of the traffic advisory.

Also ensure you read the note in bold above.