2 increasing to 3 rule

NUWATC Rookie

i think everyone knows what im talking about with the title. now if you have a flight of 2 to launch does it change to 3 increasing to 4. i have heard yes and i have heard hell no.

P_to_the_R Ruler of the Movement Area funkytown

no increase in the sep req...the last bird taking off is the one that matters

dishdawg901 Rookie Va Beach

that's not true....when you are dealing with formation flights, sep does increase. standard sep is 2 inc to 3, for every formation you add a mile, example: single f18 and a flight of 2 f18's is 3 increasing to 4 and if both are flights it's 4 increasing to 5...that's straight outta the .65 and ofcourse all of this applies to seperation immediatley after take-off

dishdawg901 Rookie Va Beach

i just looked it up for you and you can find it in the 7110.65S go to 5-5-8 Additional Separation For Formation Flights. first couple paragraphs explains everything i said in my previous post

djmodifyd Senior Member

thats radar separation not runway separation

and most flights take off non-standard...therefore that separation doesn't apply..

dishdawg901 Rookie Va Beach

djmodifyd-

Not trying to see who's di&k is bigger here, but i work at the Navy's Master Jet Base (Oceana) all we have all day long is formation flights so i've been dealing with it for a few years now. I don't know about other branches but the Navy most always departs standard formation.

also the tower is responsible for initial radar sep. if not then the tower could launch aircraft back to back and radar would never have the chance to establish proper IFR seperation.

xDGx Rookie New Mexico

I say no increase separation, but I haven't referenced the .65 yet.

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

The 2 increasing to 3 rule is a radar rule (7110.65 5-8-4). 5-5-8 says (for standard formations):

a. Separate a standard formation flight by adding 1 mile to the appropriate radar separation minima.

BUT . . . for a nonstandard formation, the rule is a little different:

c. Separate a nonstandard formation flight by applying the appropriate separation minima to the perimeter of the airspace encompassing the nonstandard formation or from the outermost aircraft of the nonstandard formation whichever applies.

d. If necessary for separation between a nonstandard formation and other aircraft, assign an appropriate beacon code to each aircraft in the formation or to the first and last aircraft in-trail.

So it would seem to me that if you used the second part of (c), along with the option (doesn't seem to be a requirement) to use (d), you could go back to the 2 increasing to 3 rather than the 3 increasing to 4 that would be required by (a) of this part and 5-8-4.

So if the flight does depart in a non-standard formation under the provisions of 5-5-8 (c) and, if necessary, (d), then part (a) doesn't apply . . .

So it would appear that in a standard formation = extra mile; nonstandard formation = standard separation

If the tower isn't responsible for initial departure separation (for example, a VFR tower w/out the appropriate LOA), then they wouldn't be allowed to depart aircraft back to back anyway.

So both of you guys were correct in your scenarios . . . which means you both have big di&ks, but still smaller than mine.

mad1dizzle Rookie

Have to agree with dishdawg and atcinWI

dishdawg901 Rookie Va Beach

atcinwi-

yes you are the john holmes of atc....lol. yeah you are right though, i didn't think too much about the vfr twr w/o loa. i work at a mil facility that is also a tracon so we have an loa that gives tower automatic releases which would allow us to depart back to back (the loa requires us to also ensure initial radar sep). thanks for clarifying.