Class D Question

nbaase Newcomer

Two class Delta's that overlap, barely...... As an approach controller I clear an aircraft for the visual approach,he is on a heading to enter the lower Class D airspace, on the downwind several miles into the intended(one I want him in)Class D he enters the other Class D airspace, whom is at fault? Who is responsible for the airspace between the two Class D's. My airspace overlies both.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

I would say the onus is on the controller. The pilot is to assume that you pointed the aircraft out to the tower of the other Class D. Unless you specifically told him to remain outside of XYZ Class Delta, cleared visual approach ABC airport. or something like that.

noid Curtis E. Carr Jawja

agreed, if the pilot wasn't issued specific instructions to remain clear of the "other" airspace and the pilot was put on a heading for the approach and violates the other airspace, it's on the controller.

Mr.Texas Mod

Ok is he cleared for the visual w/o restrictions or is he on the visual under his control?
I don't understand you saying he's cleared for the VA and on a heading for the downwind. A heading is a control instruction, so is he on the VA or not? Is the heading his restriction reference a sequence? Was he switched to the tower of intended landing? I'm assuming he was cleared for the visual and just happened to fly himself into the downwind, was switched to XYZ tower and told cleared to land...but he didn't turn base and final until he busted someones airspace. Sounds like a pilot deviation, some blame should go to the XYZ local controller as well if the sequence provided plenty of room for the pilot to have turned base and final.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

as a tower controller in phoenix we ran into this situation all the time. phoenix approach had an aircraft overfly our class D to land at an airport whose class D butted up against ours. when the P50 controller cleared the aircraft for a visual approach to CHD airport, the pilot would descend right through our class D. without a restriction or coordination with our tower by the P50 controller, i would say the onus is on the approach controller.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

In the example that you posted, you as the approach controller is responsible for pointing out the arrival to the class D airspace facility that the aircraft was flying through to get to another airport. This would be an airspace deviation error if management wanted to pursue it.

center_greenhorn You send em ill blend em

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 4-3-1, Letters of Agreement.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

nbaase Newcomer

Thank-you everyone for replying. I guess I always knew the answer, I just wanted to hear something different. The airplane was approaching from the NW say a 140 Heading. The airport is at his 12 0'clock and 10 miles, landing Rwy 27. More times than not when you clear the aircraft they continue toward the airport and enter a modified close base. However the one time I did not point this aircraft out, for reasons I will not get into. (Also thinking he's going towards the airport , no way can he enter the other delta airspace even on the downwind.) I switched the aircraft on his current 140 heading, not assigned heading by the way, because he was cleared direct the airport and told to report in sight. He reported, I cleared him and switched him due to no other traffic out there (ANYWHERE). Thanks again all.

P_T Newcomer Sheppard AFB

Ok first off you can't acheive a point out to a tower facility! Not possible a point out is transferring radar identification! And yes it's the controllers fault no traffic to tower is a no no!

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

there are some towers that can do point-outs. most class B towers are radar certified.