Visual Approach standard sep.

pigbenis Rookie

i'm going to state this question as concise as possible giving no sway so you can post your interpretations and back it up with references accordingly. i'm a tower flower and i'm fairly confident in my interpretation of this rule but i want to get an approach controllers pov.

do 2 ifr aircraft arriving at the same airport on different runways(intersecting) need to be provided standard 3 mile lateral separation when one of the aircraft is on a visual approach?

ZBWPL Newcomer

Good question. I havn't delt with this situation yet, but here is what I think.

This is from the .65.

7-4-4. APPROACHES TO MULTIPLE RUNWAYS

c. In addition to the requirements in para 7-2-1, Visual Separation, para 7-4-1, Visual Approach, para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and para 7-4-3, Clearance for Visual Approach, the following conditions apply to visual approaches being conducted simultaneously to parallel, intersecting, and converging runways, as appropriate:

4. Intersecting and converging runways. Visual approaches may be conducted simultaneously with visual or instrument approaches to another runway, provided:

(a) Standard separation is maintained until the aircraft conducting the visual approach has been issued and the pilot has acknowledged receipt of the visual approach clearance.

(b) When aircraft flight paths intersect, radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.

NOTE –Although simultaneous approaches may be conducted to intersecting runways, staggered approaches may be necessary to meet the airport separation requirements specified in para 3-10-4, Intersecting Runway Separation.


Not sure if this helps, but if I find anything else I'll post back.

-PL

ZBWPL Newcomer

Also found this...

3-10-4. INTERSECTING RUNWAY SEPARATION

Issue traffic information to each aircraft operating on
intersecting runways.

a.

2.

A preceding arriving aircraft is clear of the landing runway, completed landing roll and will hold short of the intersection/flight path, or has passed the intersection/flight path.

NOTE -

When visual separation is being applied by the tower, appropriate control instructions and traffic advisories must be issued to ensure go around or missed approaches avert any conflict with the flight path of traffic on the other runway.

-PL

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

we have intersecting runways and run visuals to intersecting all day long at LAS. as a final controller i don't provide visual or require the pilot to do so. it's up to the tower to do that.

our TCP (transfer control point) is 5 mile final, so if the local controller can't provide visual before both aircraft are inside 3 miles (or 3 miles laterally) then they break one out. visual doesn't have to be accomplished by the pilots in this case.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

The only problem is if one or both for whatever reason go around, (believe me it isn't pretty when both go around).

A smart approach controller will not give you a tie to the intersecting runways, if you have someone that does give you ties on a regular basis, I'd suggest having a chat with the individual, if that doesn't work then I'd go to your NATCA rep or if you have to the supervisor.

garlandatc Junior Member

I see Roddy's position. You need three miles for standard sep. Not considering wake, LOAs, formations, visual sep, etc .. The intersecting rwys are considered crossing courses. There really are alot of varialbes. I say you need three miles or more for the a/c on final when the preceeding a/c lands or crosses the intersection. So in basic, without LOA, VA application by the tower, etc.. You need standard lateral sep untill passing/diverging.

Matty13 Senior Member

If local has both aircraft in sight, the standard separation is visual separation. But yeah, three miles must be maintained until there's some other form of separation.

SnowAviation Senior Member Escondido, CA

You either need 3 miles separation or visual and, unless you have visual, you also must protect for the missed approach(s) if it conflicts with the other aircraft.

Being on a visual approach means nothing in this scenario.

atcguruaf Rico Suave Right here

There is no missed approach for a visual approach. So, I'm guessing you'd just make sure they don't hit in the event of a go around.

garlandatc Junior Member

I feel that this is correct. Regardless of the IFR status of a VA a/c on a Missed Approach/go around tower should be able to maintain visual sep until landing. If not they should coordinate otherwise.