Equipment/Vehicle operating on runway.

KB9LEF Junior Member

Ok, here is a topic for debate: Is is legal to have an aircraft take-off from an intersection that is "in front" of a slack cable/men on runway/vehicle crossing.

We have done it several times and at first glance JO 7110.65 3-1-5 says you can't. How ever, does the underlined phrase "runway to be used" apply the remaining runway being used from an intersection and the equpiment is behind the take-off aircraft?

Lets debate....

3-1-5. VEHICLES/EQUIPMENT/
PERSONNEL ON RUNWAYS

a. Ensure that the runway to be used is free of all
known ground vehicles, equipment, and personnel
before a departing aircraft starts takeoff or a landing
aircraft crosses the runway threshold.

b. Vehicles, equipment, and personnel in direct
communications with the control tower may be
authorized to operate up to the edge of an active
runway surface when necessary. Provide advisories
as specified in para 3-1-6, Traffic Information, and
para 3-7-5, Precision Approach Critical Area, as
appropriate.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

if ur departing from an intersection, the portion behind u is not considered part of the runway. therefore, the runway to be used IS free of all known ground vehicles, equipment, and personnel. if required, when departing an intersection you'll tell the pilot that X,XXX amount of feet available. as long as the people and equipment is not on the X,XXX amount of feet your gonna use then your good.

KB9LEF Junior Member

That all makes sense to me, however runway is defined as:

RUNWAY- A defined rectangular area on a land
airport prepared for the landing and takeoff run of
aircraft along its length.

In 3-1-5 under REFERENCE- it refers to: P/CG Term- Runway in Use/Active Runway/Duty Runway. Which is: RUNWAY IN USE/ACTIVE RUNWAY/DUTY RUNWAY- Any runway or runways currently being
used for takeoff or landing.

With this being said how can we say past an intersection its good even though they are only using X,XXX amount? What delinates that this is ok?

polo708 Epic Member tower

common sense...

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

10,000 foot runway. men and equipment working on the first 1,000 feet. intersection A2 is 2,000 feet down the runway.

"N123 taxi to runway 12 @ A2, intersection departure, 8,000 feet remaining"

u just took the men and equipment out of the equation.

the runway being used, or active runway/duty runway if u prefer, is now only 8,000 feet long and has no men and equipment on it. the runway starts at A2 in this little scenario.

obviously don't land over men and equipment or depart towards them.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

let me say this...and i only say it because i've been there and know how it goes.

this scenario is probably at a military base. u know how i know...because the military can't think outside the box and use common sense. i ran into this exact scenario about 8 years ago when i was a controller in the Air Force. took over a day to convince 3 different SNCO's and an officer that they were wrong.

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

As stated above, as long as the vechicle/personnel are behind the aircrafts departure point, no problem. I've had a crashed T34 on the first 2,000 feet of a runway, and departed jets and GA from the next intersection down without any issues and FSDO didn't bat an eye with what we were doing.

Roddy_Piper Resident Knucklehead Vegas baby

the only thing to consider is the placement of the men and equipment and putting a heavy jet or even any fighter jet at an intersection close enough that the jet blast will affect them.

garlandatc Junior Member

Concur!!!!!!

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Duh, common sense!