Helicopters in a VFR pattern

mainec Newcomer Colorado

Ok I know this is a very unique situation however I control military helicopters in a VFR pattern to my active runway. Over the past 5 years we have operated outside what I now believe the rules in the .65. Here is the scenario I want to make sure that I am clear on.

Facts: 8,000 ft runway with distance remaining markers (1,000 feet)

Helo 201 reports abeam and requests the option. Helo 201 is cleared for the option to the last 3k feet.

Helo 201 crosses landing threshold as Helo 202 reports abeam and request the option. Helo 202 is cleared for the option to the first 3k feet.

Here is my thought process:

I separated the helicopter landing areas by 200', question is do these courses to be flown conflict??? How would you clear multiple helicopters for the option to a single runway for multiple approaches? I am sure that this sounds insane to some of you however because of the traffic we have and management dont really have a way around it. Just want to do it correctly.

3-11-5. SIMULTANEOUS LANDINGS OR TAKEOFFS
Authorize helicopters to conduct simultaneous landings or takeoffs if the distance between the landing or takeoff points is at least 200 feet and the
courses to be flown do not conflict. Refer to surface markings to determine the 200 foot minimum, or instruct a helicopter to remain at least 200 feet from
another helicopter.

polo708 Epic Member tower

We always said "Continuous operations to the first 3,000 ft of runway XX are approved until further advised, traffic... bla-bla-bla."

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

Your initial plan is only flawed by clearing number 2 for the option. The problem is that number 1 might do one of those famous Army Park and Go's and number 2 might do a quick touch and go, or since you cleared him for the option a low approach right over number 1 earning you an OE (operational error).

I've cleared mulitiple helicopters to specific points many times, and I still do, but the subsequent aircraft are always cleared to land "only".

ATC_MacGyver MacGyver with the bears.

as long as you can provide visual sep you are safe...; assuming you've given traffic calls.

helo's are like the fat chicks of aviation. they allow everything, and if they are angry... just explain yourself and they will forgive you.

polo708 Epic Member tower

^nice... lol.

Fat Chicks need love too.

mainec Newcomer Colorado

I have to disagree with the fact that you can use visual separation for successive departures/arrivals.

ATC_MacGyver MacGyver with the bears.

same runway sep. bro. if second aircraft is a helo you can use visual separation.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

you're legal (in my eyes). However, I would throw in that spat about visual separation (for legal purposes).

Helo 1: Helo 1 abeam the numbers for the option.

Tower :Helo 1, cleared for the option, last 3K feet of runway.

Helo 1: Helo 1, cleared option, last 3K feet.

Helo 2: Helo 2 abeam the numbers for the option.

Tower: Helo 2, #2, follow helicopter short final, cleared for the option first 3K feet of runway, report traffic in sight.

Helo 2: Helo 2 has traffic in sight, cleared option first 3K.

Tower: Helo 2, maintain visual separation at all times while in the pattern, traffic is also cleared for the option.

Helo 2: Helo 2, will maintain visual.



Then do the same thing when Helo 1 comes back around.

I'd still actively control the situation... for example, if helo 1 is still sitting on the runway (last 3K), and helo 2 lifts off first (from the first 3K), I'd let helo 1 know about it and maybe even hold him on the runway.

In my opinion, offsetting works as well. And you can have them turn early crosswinds, have one fly a wide downwind, one fly a tight downwind, etc. There are A LOT of options for this scenario.

My black and white interpretation:

Yes, you are legal, just gotta keep em separated. May be a pain in the ass to babysit, but you are legal in my opinion. Then again, if it's MY opinion, it MUST be true. haha

MikeATC Retired FAA, NATCA Member Nashville TN

You're mis-applying the Visual Seperation, it only applies between two departures, two arrivals, or between a departure and a arrival. I've worked QA at FAA facilities, and if number 2 starts his departure before number 1 you risk having an OE. Granted there is some grey area, but you have to ensure you have appropriate seperation, and hoping that number 2 doesn't depart prior to number 1 isn't.

atcguruaf Rico Suave AZ

you don't risk having an OE in the VFR pattern. If you tell helo 2 to maintain visual from helo 1, I'm using 3-10-3 a3 from the .65. Then if helo 2 lifts off, it's my responsibility to either ensure an early crosswind, or that helo 1 stays on the ground, and I'm applying the 200 ft. rule in this instance.

We've had FAA evals and random audits. Never was the issue brought up, not even by QA.