RP4858 Newcomer

# 1

I have been told "abeam the numbers" is incorrect phraseology. For example: I am a tower controller, I have a VFR in the pattern and another one calls inbound. I issue traffic "(callsign) follow Cessna Skylane abeam the numbers, Runway 28R, number 2 cleared to land."

My argument:

1) Abeam is in the pilot controller glossary.
2) 3-1-6 b. states "Describe the relative position of traffic in an
easy to understand manner, such as “to your right” or
“ahead of you.”"
3) AOPA (and other aviation publications) use the term in publications.

His argument:

1) Which set of numbers (if 4 runways, 8 sets of "numbers")
2) What if an international pilot doesn't know what that means.

Personally I say they know the numbers refers to the ones they will be using, but I do understand also that could be considered an assumption on the controllers part. Also, international pilots are required to know the rules (abeam is in it).

I understand in training to just do as told. But I want to hear what you think based on the book. To me abeam the numbers is pretty easy to understand. Plenty of AOPA articles use that term, most pilots have reported abeam the numbers before. But this person is still convinced. What's the consensus out there?

GLF5 Junior Member

# 2

I've said it.

How about "...abeam the 18 numbers."?

MikeATC Retired & Overseas Nashville TN

# 3

Is your pattern traffic in right closed, left closed? Abeam the numbers by itself isn't descriptive enough for a position report. You might modify it to follow the cessna on the left downwind abeam the runway 18 numbers.

The word "Abeam" may not be within the phraselogy examples in the .65 but it is a common term.

ATC_MacGyver Trusted Contributor Jacksonville, fl

# 4

i agree with you. tell your trainer you ONLY have to give the runway numbers to an ARRIVING aircraft if the last aircraft cleared has been cleared to a different runway.

ATC_MacGyver Trusted Contributor Jacksonville, fl

# 5

ps. INTERNATIONAL PILOT? and air force pilot doesnt know what "left closed" means, they think it's the same as left downwind. if they don't know.... they will ask you.

i've had an army pilot ask what the "180" is.... not that he is dumb, just army controllers dont know what it means. i thought it was silly having to describe what 180 is to a pilot... but different places use different terms.

MikeATC Retired & Overseas Nashville TN

# 6

Face it, Army pilots operate within another dimension so they don't understand what some of the common pattern instructions are: Fly through final and make a 270 back to final, make a 360 on the downwind, cleared to land only (when pilot insist he wants the option), land on the numbers.

Need I go on, what is the Army teaching these guys.

polo708 Senior Analyst tower

# 7

Technically it would mean abeam the approach end numbers of the runway you assigned him.

Matty13 Senior Member

# 8

"Closed traffic" means they're the only one in the pattern and can turn as tight as they like. I've used "the numbers" plenty, with no confusion.

markthetape Senior Member

# 9

Ive been working at a army dod facility and it is the first time I have bee told by helo pilots that they have to fly the pattern to land, I have had like 6 helos in the pattern and they want to be treated like fixed wing, its weird.

ATCinWI Senior Member Illinois

# 10

I have used "abeam the 18 numbers" before, I think most controllers and pilots would understand what you wanted to tell them. It's like "turn towards the 18 numbers" to an aircraft on a base leg or modified straight-in.

But, if your instructor says "don't say that", then don't say it. Even if you prove your instructor wrong, you're not helping your relationship with him. Do it his way, get checked out, then do whatever you want.