New Requirement for FO???

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  1. #1
    irishcarbomb's Avatar
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    New Requirement for FO???

    i know we have a few airline guys/gals here...whatcha think?

    Congress to toughen airline standards

    By Alan Levin, USA TODAY
    WASHINGTON ? Safety standards for airlines and pilots would be dramatically toughened in legislation scheduled to be introduced Wednesday in Congress.

    Prompted by the crash last February near Buffalo that has raised questions about pilot qualifications, training and fatigue, the "Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009" aims to find the most successful safety programs and mandate them for all airlines, said Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Ill., chairman of the House Aviation Subcommittee.

    MORE:NTSB plan aims to shield planes from bird risks

    The bill would add tough new certification requirements for entry-level commercial pilots, require additional emergency training, improve availability of pilot records and mandate stricter rules to minimize pilot fatigue.

    "Our bill is a serious effort to consolidate what we know industry-wide about aviation safety to improve safety performance going forward," Costello said in a statement.
    FIND MORE STORIES IN: Federal Aviation Administration | National Transportation Safety Board | Air Transport Association

    The bill would:

    ? Require that all airline pilots obtain an Airline Transport Pilot license, which is currently only needed by captains. Pilots must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours to obtain the license. Co-pilots may now be hired at airlines with as little as about 200 hours, though most begin airline work with more experience.

    ? Mandate that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) within 90 days set up a new database of pilot records so that airlines will have access to more information before they hire someone for the cockpit. The captain of the jet that crashed near Buffalo had failed several FAA-mandated tests of his piloting skills, but his airline did not know about all of them when it hired him.

    ? Direct the FAA within one year to rewrite the rules for how long pilots can work. Several attempts to rewrite the rules to make piloting less prone to fatigue have failed in recent decades. FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt also has vowed to update the rules.

    ? Require airlines and travel websites when they sell tickets to disclose the name of the carrier operating the flight. About half of all flights are operated by regional airlines working under contract to major carriers, but those regionals almost never sell tickets directly to passengers. Most of the regional flights are flown with the name of the major carrier painted on their aircraft.

    ? Set up numerous studies and task forces to examine how best to train pilots, minimize pilot fatigue and run a safe airline.

    The Air Transport Association, which represents large carriers, issued a statement saying that it would prefer that current efforts to improve safety begun earlier this year by Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood be allowed to work before Congress passes legislation.

    "We believe in that process, and we believe it should be allowed to proceed to a successful conclusion," said ATA President James May.

    The Regional Airline Association said it welcomes changes that improve safety. Several parts of the bill are already contained in the association's safety initiative, it said in a statement.

    The crash Feb. 12 of a Colgan Air turboprop, which killed 50 people, has raised numerous safety issues. A National Transportation Safety Board investigation has found that neither pilot may have gotten a full night's sleep. The pilots also reacted improperly to an emergency, raising questions about how well they were trained.
    Congress to toughen airline standards - USATODAY.com
    Commercial SEL, MEL, Instrument, CFI, CFII

  2. #2
    marklar84's Avatar
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    This is gonna shoot the ICAO "Multi-Crew Pilot License" right in the foot! It was a terrible idea from the beginning, but this colgan crash demonstrated the need for more and better training, not less.

  3. #3
    irishcarbomb's Avatar
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    yea..i say good luck finding ATPs that can fly as PIC but are hired for SIC and get payed $24/hr...
    Commercial SEL, MEL, Instrument, CFI, CFII

  4. #4
    ParrotheadJGR11's Avatar
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    i don't think it's a good idea. this will put many FBOs and Flight Schools out of business IMO... they're already hurting for students as it is now, and when the minimum requirements are raised, many student pilots will not have the money or time to devote to getting 1500+ hours before getting hired at a regional making as low as 16.00/hr (great lakes)

  5. #5
    Cheeks's Avatar
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    Quote Originally Posted by ParrotheadJGR11 View Post
    and when the minimum requirements are raised, many student pilots will not have the money or time to devote to getting 1500+ hours before getting hired at a regional making as low as 16.00/hr (great lakes)
    Exactly! You hit the nail on the head but blindly and came to the wrong conclusion. Maybe there are a few innocent victims along the way but if they run out of dumbass kids afflicted with shiney jet syndrome and hit that mysterious and evasive pilot shortage that I have hearing about for the last 10 years, then the shitty regional airlines will no longer be able to get by with paying pilots slave wages. When pilot pay comes up again, the flight schools will be fine.

    If you look at foreign airlines for example, where pilots are still regarded and paid well, many will actually pay for their future pilot's training through ab/initio programs. British Airways and Cathay Pacific I know do this and I know there are more. Imagine an environment created here where airlines would actually pay you for your training versus you paying them for your training. That is how it should be.

  6. #6
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    Quote Originally Posted by marklar84 View Post
    This is gonna shoot the ICAO "Multi-Crew Pilot License" right in the foot! It was a terrible idea from the beginning, but this colgan crash demonstrated the need for more and better training, not less.
    That was my first thought as well. And if this bill would do that, then that alone is a good reason for this to pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParrotheadJGR11 View Post
    i don't think it's a good idea. this will put many FBOs and Flight Schools out of business IMO... they're already hurting for students as it is now, and when the minimum requirements are raised, many student pilots will not have the money or time to devote to getting 1500+ hours before getting hired at a regional making as low as 16.00/hr (great lakes)
    You have to stop compromising safety at some point. Apparently the House Aviation Subcommittee thinks we have reached that point. This will put pressure on the puppy mill pilot schools that advertise zero to hero in 9 months with an RJ job waiting on the other end. But I also disagree that pilots will not have the money or time to devote to getting 1500 hours. Well, they may not have the money to get 1500 hours which means that only the serious dedicated ones are the ones who will continue developing their knowledge, professionalism, self-worth by instructing, banner towing, glider towing, traffic watch, pipeline watch, aerial mapping/photography, freight, etc. in order to earn their 1500 hours. In the process, hopefully that also puts pressure on airlines to increase their pilot pay about that 16.00/hr. And since this will level the playing field as far as hiring minimums, who would go work at Great Lakes in a 1900 when they can go to ExpressJet instead, for example.

    By the way, the requirement is not for 1500 hours. Its for an ATP certificate, which requires 1500 hours, among other things.

  7. #7
    Transmitting in the Blind

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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    Absolutely BS if you ask me, more senators grandstanding like always.

    It would be nice if someone could start with 0 hours, go through to get a degree in aeronautics, with that degree, secure a job as a trainee pilot, where they get paid something similar to AG pay, and then they begin their training as a pilot, from zero to fully rated, before ever stepping foot in a jet, and without having to pay for any of it, minus the degree, out of pocket.

    But that would never happen.

    As it is right now, there are people like me, who want to be pilots, and don't have the financial resources to put forth paying to fly around in a 2 or 4 seater single engine aircraft, hundreds of hours, while there are rich kids' with Shiny jet syndrome and their daddies paying for all of their flight time.

    Sigh. Europe is no better, there you have to pay for your type ratings

  8. #8
    BoilerWings's Avatar
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    I think the real problem goes back to American's thinking that they can travel at $100 fares. No U.S. airline is going to pay for training like Lufthansa does. They simply cannot afford that AND grow AND be competitive.

    If the ATP becomes a minimum for an airline job, not much will change. The rule picks up all the furloughed guys right now, but wages won't raise. There will always be someone who's willing to fly an RJ for 24K/yr. Especially in tough economic times like we're seeing now. 24K is better than unemployment. And there are A LOT of unemployed pilots right now with 1500+.

  9. #9
    atciwrs's Avatar
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    The whole thing is disgusting, to think that you may be paid that much. What is more disgusting, is that there are people lined up to do it. Cape Air will pay a FO $9 an hour. And they are interviewing (as seen on thir website) for hiring pools. People are lined up to go into a pool.. What a dream it was, so they thought..

  10. #10
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    Requiring an ATP is not the (only) solution to the larger scale problem. Pay and quality of life are two areas where airlines need significant improvement. This then ties into the issue of fatigue. Everyone has to commute because they can't afford a decent quality of life where they are based. That equals exhausted pilots who sleep in the crew room and bathe in the public restroom sinks at the airport. These circumstances are in fact the reality and provide a very large margin of error and compromise safety. For example, I remember an FO who used to live in the closet in the crew room b/c he couldn't afford rent. Yikes! This was about the point when I realized I needed to get out...QUICK! What ever happened to that little rule of being "Fit to FLY"? Well, it's almost impossible when you are not provided with the means to do that.

    Point being, an ATP requirement is just the beginning.

  11. #11
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    Quote Originally Posted by atciwrs View Post
    Cape Air will pay a FO $9 an hour. And they are interviewing (as seen on thir website) for hiring pools. People are lined up to go into a pool.. What a dream it was, so they thought..
    While the whole thing is disgusting its not quiet as bad at cape air. They actually pay you by the duty hour vs. everywhere else that pays you for the flight hour. I think every airline should do something like this, but $9 an hour is degrading to people with the educations and the responsibility that pilots typically have. But whatever, its never going to change. Pilots are our own worst enemies and like you said people will always line up for the jobs.

  12. #12
    Dream_Land's Avatar
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    Re: New Requirement for FO???

    I agree with many posters about the increase in experience requirement, totally ridiculous. I think I remember some pilots in the 60's being hired with Private licenses and 300 total hours.

    In many other countries around the world, pilots are drafted off the streets, they are trained to the airlines specifications and arrive on the line with anywhere from 200 to 250 hours total flying time, also, most foreign countries require First Officers to be type rated. Airlines that operate like this are not little commuters, names like Qantas, British Airways and Cathy Pacific come to mind.

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