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  1. #21
    ajmezz's Avatar
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Yeah, I think everyone knows not all CTI guys/girls have that sense of entitlement, but it's just like anything else.. it only takes a couple bad seeds to ruin the lot.. or something like that haha.

  2. #22
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    I'm CTI and I don't feel entitled at all. I just want to learn and work hard. If I cannot do the job, no harm done.

  3. #23
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHODELTA85 View Post
    I'm CTI and I don't feel entitled at all. I just want to learn and work hard. If I cannot do the job, no harm done.
    That's pretty much how I feel, if it turns out hey I suck at ATC well I am still young and can move on with my life. I am really considering going the military route after I finish school. I don't expect to be hired at my age for a few years anyway and would rather be doing something productive than working some crap job.

  4. #24
    ECHODELTA85's Avatar
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by cwink94 View Post
    That's pretty much how I feel, if it turns out hey I suck at ATC well I am still young and can move on with my life. I am really considering going the military route after I finish school. I don't expect to be hired at my age for a few years anyway and would rather be doing something productive than working some crap job.
    Make sure you get a degree that's worth something when you get out of school. But military ATC will be great if you decided to do it. Sounds like a great plan. I'm not as young as you are but I still have enough time to get my life together.

  5. #25
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHODELTA85 View Post
    Make sure you get a degree that's worth something when you get out of school. But military ATC will be great if you decided to do it. Sounds like a great plan. I'm not as young as you are but I still have enough time to get my life together.
    I think I will graduate will an Associates of Applied Science or something like that, I have a 4 year scholarship though to any school in TX so I might go on and get my bachelors. Though I feel the military route will help me more than the bachelors degree ever will with my ultimate goal.

  6. #26
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by cwink94 View Post
    That's pretty much how I feel, if it turns out hey I suck at ATC well I am still young and can move on with my life. I am really considering going the military route after I finish school. I don't expect to be hired at my age for a few years anyway and would rather be doing something productive than working some crap job.
    Even if you get a great job in the military, you'll still end up doing crap jobs. I used to call them "character-building exercises."

  7. #27
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Any news on the telecom yet?

  8. #28
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Everyone will get an email this week that has applied in the past that spells it all out.

  9. #29
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    I have not yet applied. I'm expecting to graduate from a CTI school this spring.

  10. #30
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by kos398663 View Post
    I have not yet applied. I'm expecting to graduate from a CTI school this spring.
    Study for that AT-SAT and prep your application- let the hunger games begin

  11. #31
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by kos398663 View Post
    Any news on the telecom yet?
    Here is what was posted to the cti connection fb page about the telecom.

    Hi guys, well we just got off a disappointing, but not surprising, telcon with the FAA; they answered none of our real questions, except that there will not be a CTI bid for now or the foreseeable future. They appear to be muddled as to the reason they are doing this. They say it is not about diversity quotas, but the entire barrier analysis, on which they are basing the changes, is about nothing but that. So you can try to figure that out. Here's the only real information I got--anybody else who was on feel free to correct me if my understanding is not correct.


    1 In February, there will be an announcement for General Public hire. You can all put it for it. In fact, even if you already applied, you need to put in for it again. Part of this announcement will include biographical questionnaire. Based on that information, you may or may not get selected to test for the new and improved AT-SAT. Your old scores are no longer valid and you must retest. There may or may not be information about your education on there, so having a CTI degree may or may not be an advantage. (Goodbye 30 grand. . . )


    2 If you are selected to attend the academy, you will have to sign something that says you will accept an offer anywhere in the country upon graduation. At the end of that academy, if you pass, you will be offered to go somewhere. Of course, they cannot stop you from quitting so if its truly horrible you will have option of quitting, but that will be your only out. When you accept the job, you will at least know if you are accepting for terminal or en route.


    3 If you have a TOL, it will be honored. If not, you are stuck and will have to go through this new process. You should be getting a letter from the FAA detailing the new process, and sincerely hoping that you will reapply.


    Thanks for Sam and Joe and everyone else who tried to get on and make good points for you all--I forget all the names as I was kind of in shock. We are still working on things now. Keep you posted. In the meantime, you can all write letters and start working on a strategy at least now.


    I am truly sorry for all of you who invested in this education and now feel like you have been thrown under a bus. Let's just not give up quite yet. . .

  12. #32
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by flyin_sooner View Post
    When you accept the job, you will at least know if you are accepting for terminal or en route.
    Hmmm I doubt you would have to wait until after you graduate the Academy to find out whether you are going terminal or En-route, unless they decide to combine into one big training program which would be a cluster F and cost them a shit ton of money.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyin_sooner View Post
    I am truly sorry for all of you who invested in this education and now feel like you have been thrown under a bus. Let's just not give up quite yet. . .
    I.e. keep sending us your money for now, maybe things will get better. lol.

  13. #33
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Sounds like you know enroute or terminal going in but nothing more

  14. #34
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    I think a lot of CTI students may be frustrated or sensitive to the subject due to the fact that it is not free to take the CTI program. Taking 5 to 6 courses that are relative to ATC and a whole bunch of other courses that have little to do with it leaves a big whole in ones wallet at the end when one graduates.
    Spending thousands of dollars to try and get a better chance to get into something such as ATC does not only take a toll on investment money wise, but also it takes a great investment on ones time and hard work. So when told that CTI is no longer meaningful, it can feel like a kick in between the legs with boots on (if you are male).
    It seems now like CTI students are in the same league as people trying to become ATCs fresh off the street. This may seem a little unfair considering the investment CTI students have made in order to try and become ATCs. I am not saying that every CTI student will be much better in becoming a great ATC than someone in the general community. Taking the CTI program only teaches you little basic things about what it takes to become a great ATC. Yes, working smart under extreme pressures is part of what makes a person a great ATC, but ultimately what makes the individual master the skills that it takes to become a god like ATC is someone that has had hands on training, has made many mistakes, learned from those mistakes, and has applied the knowledge gained from those mistakes in order to never make those mistakes again.

  15. #35
    Jax
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by nhstadt View Post
    Notice he mentioned nothing of not washing you NE haha.

    I'm not that type of asshole. I'm actually very fair when it comes to training. We do need you guys to check out so that I can actually get to take some annual leave, or stop working mandatory 6 days a week. If you can work the traffic, and you're not one of the "rock the boat" types you'll be ok.

  16. #36
    charliezuluatc
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    I agree I am glad the CTI program is Unofficially Done for. The agency hired military and off the street for decades and was very successful with it. The schools screwed up the program. Creating different levels of training and education. There was no base line standard for the program. The schools were given free reign. Education inequality.

  17. #37
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    No offense to CTI grads, but a few classes can not really prepare you for live traffic. I've seen the best book students crumble with traffic.

  18. #38
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by mikechuck View Post
    Believe me. There are many VRA guys out there who can't separate planes (or at least not without CI open and the WS watching intensely with only 3 planes). I saw it at my home base. But I came from a complex airspace with multiple airfields and where vectoring and airspeed is seemingly given every other transmission. When I deployed I couldn't believe the inability of some Airmen to control airplanes. These individuals were from well known busy AF facilities. I came to find out that they are "canned" and haven't needed to vector or sequence a plane since Biloxi. What I will say is this. Standards have continuously decreased in the military just the same as I'm sure CTI standards have. I was fortunate enough to have a hard nosed "old school" trainer who tore me down(to the verge of quitting multiple times) and built me up to be a controller.

    To Siddley. Every good controller I've ever met is confident and most likely would tell you they are either the best or better than you or humbly smile without saying it. All depending on there modesty level. Controllers are cocky and deservingly so. Some are brash. So I would watch your sensitivity level because those "good ole boys" are still around and will speak their mind. Something CTI doesn't teach you is having thick skin. Wait until your in position and your a-hole trainer is watching you and you slip up or stutter and they over-key and make it a point to tell everyone. The will do whatever they can to make your blood boil. So I hope for your sake you don't get an "ACT" (I think you mean "ATC") God as your trainer.

    I'm a VRA radar guy. I have never met a CTI and believe there are many potential good controllers in the bunch. But I support the OTS announcement. Anyone and everyone should be given an opportunity to do this job. You either can do it or you can't and its a pretty quick process to figure that out. I don't see why defending an (other than ATC) unmarketable degree is even an argument. I think the job requirements should be raised (At least a 2 year degree) and the weeding out process ramped up before new hires reach their facilities. I also think a lot of you are over reacting. Unless you are older(near that 31 mark), you will get your opportunity at some point. Just calm down and wait til all the facts come out.
    Yep, all of this.

  19. #39
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax View Post
    Is not me, though I do agree with what he posted. I'm only 23 years on the job, so if he's 35 years on the job, he's got me beat in senority. I got dizzy trying to read that wall of text.
    I'm 24 years this month... you must've slipped in just before the doors shut because I remember a hiring freeze later that year that lasted a few years. Or maybe that was 91? 92?

    Anyway, I don't fully agree with OP about CTI itself (but do agree about lowered standards). CTI was never intended to be a screening program or to do any kind of "OJT" in sims. The requirements for a school to become CTI-approved was very small, just teach the basics of the NAS, basics of aviation, some familiarization with the job using sims. But nothing else, they did not want schools teaching ATC techniques -- there was no requirement for teachers to even be former controllers. Schools tried "sim OJT" anyway, I guess to attract more students and stretch out the minimum 60-80 hours of classroom and lab time into multiple years of enrollment. But they weren't required to... and the FAA still doesn't want them to.

    And HQ has never assumed 80 hours of college classes would do anything other than save some of those 160 hours of classroom instruction pre-screening the academy used to do. Sure, if someone failed college CTI we didn't want them, but if they passed CTI they weren't supposed to get any special privileges or assumptions when they started training. If lots are getting signed off who shouldn't be, that's facility management's fault, not some kind of directive from above.

    And getting more training hours? Again facility decision. I remember during that freeze in the 90's the "train to succeed" where people had no hours limit (which was a directive from above). We had a guy in my area on his first R-side when I got in, and I and several others in my class made FPL before this guy had finished his 3rd R-side (3 easiest in the area). That's when we had lots of staffing and he was getting 3-5 hours a day. I don't know how many multiple thousands of hours they had given him, but it was all wasted when he finally did wash out.

    Yea, we've always had terrible developmentals and people getting through who shouldn't have. Not as many as now, but I think that's more a facility problem than due to those 80 hours of classes they had back in college. I'd blame mangement, not CTI itself.

  20. #40
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    Re: CTI Ends ... Thankfully

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabe View Post
    Yea, we've always had terrible developmentals and people getting through who shouldn't have. Not as many as now, but I think that's more a facility problem ...

    I dont know know about you but it seems those people getting through are due to the this new FAA where everyone is kinder gentler and more PC and doesn't want to tell someone the harsh truth that they can't the job. I miss the days of training with your hand on their jack, and unplugging the trainee when they screw up. Now you get counseled for that being too harsh and insensitive.

    I understand that someone is ready is ready for certification when they can "work moderate traffic under general supervision" but standards have fallen because traffic levels are down. We shouldn't be signing em off and getting a lifer at a low level tower because they wouldn't be able to make it anywhere else. "Just put me in for the slow time" I guess.

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