Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

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  1. #1
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    Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    For reference my airfield is KEND (Vance).

    You have an aircraft recieve taxi instructions from Ground "Shoot15 taxi to runway 17R via Alpha, 17C, Charlie, Hold short of runway 17C." The aircraft holds short of runway 17C and switches to Local. What phraseology would you use to get the Aircraft on runway 17C and to exit onto taxiway Charlie?

  2. #2
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Cross 17C. Just my thoughts since he was instructed to hold short. I would use proceed if I wanted him to go down the runway for whatever reason. (I.e proceed onto runway 17C.)

    Cross seems most appropriate but I have heard controllers say "Proceed across and taxi across". I believe the .65 specifically states the phraseology to cross a runway as "cross runway 17C at alpha (whatever taxiway/runway holding point where he is holding".)
    Last edited by kaeXo; 01-16-2019 at 05:14 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Would you use cross even if the aircraft had to taxi ~1500feet down 17C to get from Alpha to Charlie?

  4. #4
    ajmezz's Avatar
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Taxi south on 17C/on to 17C, turn right charlie, hold short 17R. Out of curiosity, is it common practice to take them the long way instead of just crossing 17L onto charlie?

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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    See now you are adding information. I think proceed onto 17C turn right at charlie or "back taxi runway 35L turn right at charlie would be the .65 technical way." No need to have them read back hold short of 17R as long as the pilot read back on the initial taxi call the runway departing/taxing to.

    Also curious as to why he would switch to local as well if hes still taxing? Seems like that would just be coordination between ground/local to have the guy proceed onto/cross a runway. I know most locals are to busy to be worrying about having to taxi someone.
    Last edited by kaeXo; 01-16-2019 at 09:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Stinger's Avatar
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    So far no one has gotten it right. The new taxi instruction procedure is to only issue a taxi clearance up to the intermediate runway if there's a hold short of that runway given.

    So your example:
    Ground: Shoot15, runway 17R, taxi via Alpha, hold short of runway 17C.
    (switches to local)
    Local: Shoot15, taxi/continue taxiing/proceed via runway 17C, Charlie.

    3-7-2 a 1
    a. When authorizing an aircraft to taxi or a vehicle
    to proceed on the movement area, specify the taxi
    instructions/route. If it is the intent to hold the
    aircraft/vehicle short of:
    1. A runway: issue the route up to the runway
    hold short point.

  7. #7
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    There is zero point for the guy to switch to local in this scenario however.

  8. #8
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaeXo View Post
    There is zero point for the guy to switch to local in this scenario however.
    Obviously there must be otherwise the question wouldn't have been asked.
    This operation requires a 1500 foot taxi down an active runway owned by Local...there is zero chance Ground could accomplish the movement more efficiently.

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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinger View Post
    Obviously there must be otherwise the question wouldn't have been asked.
    This operation requires a 1500 foot taxi down an active runway owned by Local...there is zero chance Ground could accomplish the movement more efficiently.
    Coordination coordination coordination. Coming from an extremely busy DOD facility and now being a civilian controller, FAA controllers are terrible with coordination. Switching the guy to a busy local controller is terribly inefficient for the local controller to be worrying about giving a guy taxi instructions and would never be done at any busy facility I've ever worked or seen.

    The local controller has much more to worry about than be wasting time taxing people when he can "coordinate" with ground to give him the runway and take it back once ground reports clear.

  10. #10
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    It's common practice. The inside runway is usually extremely busy and it's quicker to send them to 17C.

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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaeXo View Post
    Coordination coordination coordination. Coming from an extremely busy DOD facility and now being a civilian controller, FAA controllers are terrible with coordination. Switching the guy to a busy local controller is terribly inefficient for the local controller to be worrying about giving a guy taxi instructions and would never be done at any busy facility I've ever worked or seen.

    The local controller has much more to worry about than be wasting time taxing people when he can "coordinate" with ground to give him the runway and take it back once ground reports clear.
    Here it is actually much quicker for the aircraft to switch to LC for getting onto the Runway.

  12. #12
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaeXo View Post
    Coordination coordination coordination. Coming from an extremely busy DOD facility and now being a civilian controller, FAA controllers are terrible with coordination. Switching the guy to a busy local controller is terribly inefficient for the local controller to be worrying about giving a guy taxi instructions and would never be done at any busy facility I've ever worked or seen.

    The local controller has much more to worry about than be wasting time taxing people when he can "coordinate" with ground to give him the runway and take it back once ground reports clear.
    No.
    Local handling that taxi portion is way more efficient.
    No matter which way it's done, ground and local would both have to say the same words. By adding coordination to it, you're adding verbiage, time, and adding to workload.
    It's local's runway, let local get the aircraft down the runway. Ground is there to serve Local as another set of eyes.

  13. #13
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerATC View Post
    Here it is actually much quicker for the aircraft to switch to LC for getting onto the Runway.
    Keep on keepin' on.
    Did your taxi instruction question get answered or do you have a followup or need clarity?

  14. #14
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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    I work at a level 12 tracon. Do not call me for anything. I hate pointless coordination. Just switch me the aircraft.

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    Re: Proceed, Taxi, or Cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinger View Post
    Keep on keepin' on.
    Did your taxi instruction question get answered or do you have a followup or need clarity?
    It got answered! Thank you! We were using "Shoot15 proceed on runway 17C at Aloha exit Charlie." Which has been deemed incorrect and the proper verbiage is "Shoot 15 taxi on runway 17C at alpha exit Charlie."

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