ERR MOU Change Campaign - Page 3

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  1. #41
    RomeoNovember's Avatar
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by NovemberEcho View Post
    Um, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but aren't all positions certifiable positions?
    Not sure how to say it, lol! Positions not working moving traffic. FD and coordinator aren't really a position. I'd say LC, GC, and CIC should be considered for their target formula, and probably are, however they don't require those positions to be staff all hours of operation because they'd have to call in OT to staff those positions regardless of traffic.

    I'd bet on paper the tax payers are paying for all positions to be staffed all hours of operation, that's why the target numbers are so high. Just a random thought!
    Last edited by RomeoNovember; 02-22-2016 at 06:02 PM.

  2. #42
    Stinger's Avatar
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by RomeoNovember View Post
    Not sure how to say it, lol! Positions not working moving traffic. FD and coordinator aren't really a position. I'd say LC, GC, and CIC should be considered for their target formula, and probably are, however they don't require those positions to be staff all hours of operation because they'd have to call in OT to staff those positions regardless of traffic.

    I'd bet on paper the tax payers are paying for all positions to be staffed all hours of operation, that's why the target numbers are so high. Just a random thought!
    The numbers I mentioned are all real positions. There's a few I didn't count as well. Currently each person working a radar position (which is each multiple positions combined) is using between 6-10 radio frequencies each. It's very jumbled.

  3. #43
    dubdub's Avatar
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by MI ATC View Post
    Where did you hear that? Any facilities you know of successfully do this?
    Heard it from a en route NATCA rep who is heavily involved nationally. I haven't heard of any facilities trying it, but if he said it's possible then I think it's worth a try.

    For the lower level facilities, reducing the target number by just 2 or 3 would drastically change the outlook/morale of those who want to leave. As it stands with the most recent national average, my facility would need all 9 current developmentals to certify, plus a future developmental, in order for 1 person to be eligible for ERR. That's not taking into account any early retirements (which the corporation talks might induce), washouts, hardships, N90/C90 call ups, resignations, or promotions to an FLM spot.

    Maybe we'll get some ERRs inbound that can check out quick, but with so few people even eligible to ERR, I find that doubtful.

  4. #44
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Almost on a daily basis I find myself trying (and failing) to find any possible way my family and I could be happy in Chicago or New York, because that seems like the only way out in the foreseeable future.

  5. #45
    RomeoNovember's Avatar
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by dubdub View Post
    Heard it from a en route NATCA rep who is heavily involved nationally. I haven't heard of any facilities trying it, but if he said it's possible then I think it's worth a try.

    For the lower level facilities, reducing the target number by just 2 or 3 would drastically change the outlook/morale of those who want to leave. As it stands with the most recent national average, my facility would need all 9 current developmentals to certify, plus a future developmental, in order for 1 person to be eligible for ERR. That's not taking into account any early retirements (which the corporation talks might induce), washouts, hardships, N90/C90 call ups, resignations, or promotions to an FLM spot.

    Maybe we'll get some ERRs inbound that can check out quick, but with so few people even eligible to ERR, I find that doubtful.
    I feel for you man! Where are you at now?

    I wonder if this new ERR process is a big conspiracy to get the lifers complaining about the target numbers, so they're then forced to audit the numbers, forcing a reduction in target numbers across the board, all theses fat lowers levels release a ton of people to fill the starving priority list, and boom management looks brilliant, decreasing staffing and saving the agency a shit load of money!

  6. #46
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinger View Post
    If my facility had even two-thirds of the available positions open, we'd need 9 people on position at all times. With overtime included, there's only 9-10 people working per shift.
    What's your target number?

  7. #47
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by RomeoNovember View Post
    I feel for you man! Where are you at now?

    I wonder if this new ERR process is a big conspiracy to get the lifers complaining about the target numbers, so they're then forced to audit the numbers, forcing a reduction in target numbers across the board, all theses fat lowers levels release a ton of people to fill the starving priority list, and boom management looks brilliant, decreasing staffing and saving the agency a shit load of money!
    If it gets us pushed up more power to them.

  8. #48
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by RomeoNovember View Post
    What's your target number?
    34. Currently have 21.

  9. #49
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by dubdub View Post
    Almost on a daily basis I find myself trying (and failing) to find any possible way my family and I could be happy in Chicago or New York, because that seems like the only way out in the foreseeable future.
    In fairness, how many years have you been at your current facility that you have to make these hard decisions?

    For everyone else;

    Do you believe there should be a minimum you have to put in at a facility before you can ERR? To invoke facility of preference (article 60) you need 8 years certified.....

    How about 8 years CPC and facility of preference trumps the release MOU?

    Or is it fair game as soon as you are checked out to leave?

    Should it be like a swap where you have to have 1 year CPC?

    Should a trainee be able to ERR before certification to avoid suspension of training?

    I don't pretend to have these answers, but I feel the new MOU is at least a good start.

  10. #50
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    you can't be considered under article 60 unless the facility meets the mou category criteria

  11. #51
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ0730 View Post
    you can't be considered under article 60 unless the facility meets the mou category criteria
    I know, but in your proposed solution, should that be taken into consideration? More of a question to everyone. I have the MOU, FAQ, etcetera and am familiar.

  12. #52
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jdatc624 View Post
    I know, but in your proposed solution, should that be taken into consideration? More of a question to everyone. I have the MOU, FAQ, etcetera and am familiar.
    If you put in the time you should get something out of it. It should trump the MOU in my opinion.

  13. #53
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jdatc624 View Post
    In fairness, how many years have you been at your current facility that you have to make these hard decisions?

    For everyone else;

    Do you believe there should be a minimum you have to put in at a facility before you can ERR? To invoke facility of preference (article 60) you need 8 years certified.....

    How about 8 years CPC and facility of preference trumps the release MOU?

    Or is it fair game as soon as you are checked out to leave?

    Should it be like a swap where you have to have 1 year CPC?

    Should a trainee be able to ERR before certification to avoid suspension of training?

    I don't pretend to have these answers, but I feel the new MOU is at least a good start.
    I've heard plenty of people say that controller's who have "put in their time" have more of a right to leave than new controllers. But for me, as long as the rules allow a person to leave, than I'm not mad if they exercise that right because each person has their own justifications and reasons for leaving.

    Prior to the MOU, I've heard of facility proposals that someone would not be eligible to ERR until they've spent the same amount of time as a CPC as they spent training. Sounded pretty fair to me.

  14. #54
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jdatc624 View Post
    I know, but in your proposed solution, should that be taken into consideration? More of a question to everyone. I have the MOU, FAQ, etcetera and am familiar.
    it is. one of the alternatives i listed was a cpc term. IE after 2 yrs as a cpc you can err and be selected, THEN your release date is determined by a facility category. Ive started sending the letters out. i cant attach them here, but ill link them.

    Long letter
    Short version

  15. #55
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Here's what it would look like under this MOU if every facility in the FAA were staffed to 100% and future projected was 100% or higher. Far right column is how many CPC eligible to ERR.

    staffing 100%.pdf

  16. #56
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    So nobody can move because the national average is 100%?

  17. #57
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    I don't think that's right. If a facility is Cat 2 they can release people until they are no longer Cat 2. That might be one person or maybe several. Either way they don't have to be Cat 2 plus one person in order to let someone go. When they actually drop below then they are cut off until their number gets back up.

  18. #58
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by TimShady View Post
    I don't think that's right. If a facility is Cat 2 they can release people until they are no longer Cat 2. That might be one person or maybe several. Either way they don't have to be Cat 2 plus one person in order to let someone go. When they actually drop below then they are cut off until their number gets back up.
    if the selection would bring the facility below category 2 staffing, then it cannot be made. So it's Cat 2 plus one person, to release one person.

  19. #59
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ0730 View Post
    it is. one of the alternatives i listed was a cpc term. IE after 2 yrs as a cpc you can err and be selected, THEN your release date is determined by a facility category. Ive started sending the letters out. i cant attach them here, but ill link them.

    Long letter
    Short version
    These letters are amazing, fantastic work!!! I really appreciate you taking the time putting this together. I'll pass them out ASAP. Do you prefer we use the short or long?

    Thx!

  20. #60
    TimShady's Avatar
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by BrewnATC View Post
    if the selection would bring the facility below category 2 staffing, then it cannot be made. So it's Cat 2 plus one person, to release one person.
    Yeah, looks like you're right. That should be made more clear I think. So it doesn't really matter if your facility is Cat 2, the question is will it still be Cat 2 after you're selected. Kinda dumb. Alright, send the letter!

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