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  1. #581
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by thirtythree View Post
    I'd write you a check right now if it would change anything.
    You got your TOL in what, January 2012 and your pissed you can't go exactly where you want with less then 5 years in?

    Didnt you get to change facilities once already as well?

  2. #582
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    I think too many people are looking at the small picture (their own) and not see the bigger picture. Is this MOU perfect? No. But they are trying to fix staffing nationwide. It was never going to be a quick fix.

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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    Why exactly was movement frozen for BGM then, back during this Golden Period When NATCA Wasn't Screwing Small Facilities?
    Maybe some facilities just suck, and nobody wants to go there and everyone wants out. The rumors I heard about Birmingham from around that time period were pretty horrid, and I'm assuming anyone looking into going there heard the same things.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    The guy that your local elected to represent them reached an agreement with the FAA about the staffing your facility should have. What a miscarriage of justice.
    Our NATCA rep was not told what the implications would be of the number he chose. Of course he's going to pick a high number, everyone wants to be highly staffed and have long breaks and tons of leave. I guarantee you he did not know that after picking a number that it would create set-in-stone limits for movement that were WAY higher than what they had previously been. Even if he had known, he would have been screwed either way because what works best for N90 or MIA is not what works best for us, so either we're understaffed and can let people go, or we're over staffed and can't let anyone go. And sure, he and the other 50% of controllers at my facility who will stay here for life are happy that they get tons more leave with a ridiculously high CPC number, but the other 50% who want to move eventually have been screwed.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    I am so tired of hearing this bullshit from people who should know better, but cannot see past them not getting everything they want, now now now.
    Cool, let's resort to strawman arguments. I'm a little baby and you know what's best for everyone. Got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    The FAA has no obligation in law to send you where you want, although they must consider your request by agreement with NATCA in a process we agree to. They can freeze all of us where we are, if they think it's urgent enough, and there's not much NATCA could do about it.
    So before, there was a system where people could move and it was negotiated by a facility who wanted you, a facility that may or may not have been happy about letting you go, and a NATCA rep who knew you and hopefully was looking out for your best interests. If there was a problem, file a grievance. Now we have a system where the facility that wants you has no say, your facility has no say, your local NATCA rep has no say, and a panel of bureaucrats moves people without knowing what's really going on anywhere, and this is all provided for in a SOP that gives them broad authority without written criteria, so there is nothing to grieve if you feel it's wrong. I prefer the former. As far as shutting down movement, the FAA hasn't asked for that, and they didn't ask for this policy, NATCA did.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    NATCA has an obligation to serve its whole membership as best it can, and as fairly as it can. They have an obligation to you, who are trying to get out of your undesirable tower to a more desirable tower. They have an obligation to all the people who are trying to get from their undesirable towers to more desirable towers, maybe even the same one as you. They have an obligation to the people you are trying to leave behind, to ensure adequate staffing for safety, schedules and leave. They have an obligation to facilities who have a lower percentage of staffing than you, Core 30 or not. Serving all of you fairly does not mean that you individually will get what you want, on your timeline.
    It all depends on what you believe is fair. I don't expect or ask to be selected before someone who has more experience and has been waiting for a facility longer. I don't expect or ask to be released from my facility first just because my desired facility is "more important." I'm willing to take a number and wait in line. But there's no line anymore, its a free-for-all, and I don't believe that's fair to anyone trying to leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    So you want to return to a system where your move is entirely at the whim of your manager and your service area, subject to change if they promote someone in front of you with no oversight above the local facility, and where NATCA has no formal input?
    Yes. A million times yes. I've sat here at a facility I was arbitrarily assigned for years and years, watching the guys ahead of me being treated fairly by managers, service area, and NATCA, while I waited my turn. I didn't ask to jump the line, I paid my dues, literally and figuratively. Now, those ahead of me are gone, and those behind me are getting released. Sweet deal, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    With 10,000 CPCs in the NAS, and barely enough developmentals to replace the CPCs who must retire in the next five years, you want to leave it all up to the FAA? Sure hope your manager's the sweetheart you think he is, when you put in your paperwork.
    My facility is better staffed than it ever has been. My manager says he would let me go. The facility I want to go to needs people and doesn't have anyone applying. Everyone involved is in agreement. But the NCEPT panel says no, the new certs need to be able to leave because their desired facility is slightly higher on the priority list. What I want to do and where I want to go should be handled between my facility and the receiving facility and my local NATCA representative.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    Also, NATCA is made up of bargaining unit members, not bargaining unit facilities. What's best for the majority of them?
    What's best is a system that is local, understands the unique situation at the releasing and receiving facilities, and can take all the factors into consideration, with national maximums and a greivance system for review in the case of abuse of the system. The NCEPT panel can't do that. Even then, if they refuse to get rid of the NCEPT panel, there are ways to dramatically improve the system, but NATCA is unwilling to listen. THAT is what I am frustrated about.

  4. #584
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jdatc624 View Post
    You got your TOL in what, January 2012 and your pissed you can't go exactly where you want with less then 5 years in?

    Didnt you get to change facilities once already as well?

    Exactly where I want? I'd go to 80% of the facilities in the FAA including N90 and C90

  5. #585
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by thirtythree View Post
    Exactly where I want? I'd go to 80% of the facilities in the FAA including N90 and C90
    If that's the case, what's the problem? Those facilities are covered under a separate MOU and you don't need to be Cat 1 or 2 to be selected or released.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogier6 View Post
    Lets see if this works.
    It worked, thanks for posting.

  6. #586
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Apparently you need to transfer to a level six vfr tower to get selected for DEN.

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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogier6 View Post
    Apparently you need to transfer to a level six vfr tower to get selected for DEN.
    ...or a level 5 tower to go to ATL... This isn't progress. It is an embarrassment...

  8. #588
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Whoa whoa whoa, don't be hatin' on Willow Run (YIP). They have dual parallels. Complexity. Ha.

  9. #589
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertB View Post
    ...or a level 5 tower to go to ATL... This isn't progress. It is an embarrassment...
    fair enough, but do you know where this person was before?

    Search Federal Employee Salaries

    sometimes a search shows people were at higher facilities in the past. I dont know him, or his history. So I can't judge.

  10. #590
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    As he said, it's an embarrassment. The other two have only three years in the agency. That means if they were anywhere before they most likely washed out. There is no way to logically justify these selections. Level 5 to ATL? If they were the only qualified (staffing) candidate go team, but still not ideal when other mid level controllers would love the opportunity.

  11. #591
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jdatc624 View Post
    fair enough, but do you know where this person was before?

    Search Federal Employee Salaries

    sometimes a search shows people were at higher facilities in the past. I dont know him, or his history. So I can't judge.
    If these numbers are accurate, CAE (level 6 up/down), EMT (level 5), JNU (level 5), MYR (level 8 up/down), ORL (level 5), and YIP (level 4)... AMAZING!!!

    Make it where you can only move up, at the most, four levels. You'd have much better controllers over time and you'd staff the mid level facilities which will in turn help the higher level ones in a few years.
    Last edited by RobertB; 09-26-2016 at 01:18 PM.

  12. #592
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Lmao! El Monte lvl 5 single runway VFR tower to ATL. I haven't seen something like this since 2010.

  13. #593
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Without getting into the merits of the current ERR system versus any hypothetical alternatives, I just want to leave the people complaining about NATCA and the bureaucracy with this.

    If you are a member, you are NATCA, no less than anyone else up to Paul Rinaldi and Trish Gilbert. What NATCA does or stands for is as much on you, the voting member holding no formal position, as it is on the elected officers of the union. Dean Iacopelli and Andy LeBovidge are not "the bureaucracy," they are both air traffic controllers and members of NATCA that others elected to represent them. They are accountable to NATCA, and if enough people don't like what they do, they can be voted out in favor of someone else who will.

    I clearly don't believe that the ERR MOU is so flawed that we return to status quo ante, but I'm just one person. Have you told your facility representative what you think? Have you tried to get an update from your facility representative or RVP, based on the conversation you heard between the panel and another NATCA member from SHV, about NATCA's plan to solve the too-staffed-for-new-hires-not-staffed-enough-for-releases problem that your facility finds itself in? Have you taken it upon yourself to find other NATCA members in your same district with the same problem? Have you put your name in to run for facility representative or RVP, to fix the problems you see?

    If not, maybe consider those things before you drop your 1188s in January?

  14. #594
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Do you really think people are sitting around not saying anything or not voicing their concerns?!? When Paul and Trish visited Atlanta, all they could respond to our concerns with were "...you're not as bad off as C90 or N90 (bull shit)..." or "...you guys don't know how their facility operates (another bull shit as a few people here came from those facilities or transferred to them from here)..." Being at 64 CPCs out of 102 with another 5 gone by the end of the year and no one projected to certify is horrendous. Yet, management can open and close a supervisor bid in six weeks to help them be 100% staffed by the end of the year. Also, they're trying to take another CPC for a temp staff assignment and another one for a TMU temp assignment. So we're looking at truly 57 CPCs (one is permanently assigned to ERC and another is part time). Tough to work appropriately when your CPC number is your daily staffing requirement number... How do they do this under this new process?!? Waivers waivers waivers... We are being sold ten pounds of shit and we currently have a five pound bag. #justwantthetruth
    Last edited by RobertB; 09-26-2016 at 05:45 PM.

  15. #595
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    Without getting into the merits of the current ERR system versus any hypothetical alternatives, I just want to leave the people complaining about NATCA and the bureaucracy with this.

    If you are a member, you are NATCA, no less than anyone else up to Paul Rinaldi and Trish Gilbert. What NATCA does or stands for is as much on you, the voting member holding no formal position, as it is on the elected officers of the union. Dean Iacopelli and Andy LeBovidge are not "the bureaucracy," they are both air traffic controllers and members of NATCA that others elected to represent them. They are accountable to NATCA, and if enough people don't like what they do, they can be voted out in favor of someone else who will.

    I clearly don't believe that the ERR MOU is so flawed that we return to status quo ante, but I'm just one person. Have you told your facility representative what you think? Have you tried to get an update from your facility representative or RVP, based on the conversation you heard between the panel and another NATCA member from SHV, about NATCA's plan to solve the too-staffed-for-new-hires-not-staffed-enough-for-releases problem that your facility finds itself in? Have you taken it upon yourself to find other NATCA members in your same district with the same problem? Have you put your name in to run for facility representative or RVP, to fix the problems you see?

    If not, maybe consider those things before you drop your 1188s in January?
    Am I the only one seeing the irony of this post in a thread dedicated entirely to doing exactly what he just said? My personal experience, along with dozens of others who have contacted me from across the FAA, in every region, NATCA has always given a kindly F U everytime this MOU is brought up.

  16. #596
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ0730 View Post
    Am I the only one seeing the irony of this post in a thread dedicated entirely to doing exactly what he just said? My personal experience, along with dozens of others who have contacted me from across the FAA, in every region, NATCA has always given a kindly F U everytime this MOU is brought up.
    Well, you've told NATCA, and that's it. Time to give up.

  17. #597
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by lowapproach View Post
    Have you tried to get an update from your facility representative or RVP, based on the conversation you heard between the panel and another NATCA member from SHV, about NATCA's plan to solve the too-staffed-for-new-hires-not-staffed-enough-for-releases problem that your facility finds itself in? Just for clarity, what sort of update are you speaking of? The SHV guy asked about first come first serve for ERR's and then about the problem of releasing two ppl at once. The response was it was an "unintended consequence" that they know about but currently have no resolution. If you are asking if we have been questioning about our current staffing number, then yes I have over and over but I keep hearing our ATM is happy with our 26 staffing number for a level 6.

    Have you taken it upon yourself to find other NATCA members in your same district with the same problem? I think that's the purpose a lot of ppl are complaining on this thread.
    Have you put your name in to run for facility representative or RVP, to fix the problems you see? I have been in local office and will be running for next year as well. Kyle (that SHV guy) was president for 3 years. We've also brought up our problem with an ARVP and the reason Kyle stood up in front of the convention body was to bring light to our situation to everyone. I agree that if people want change then they need to speak up...we'll see if anything changes.

    If not, maybe consider those things before you drop your 1188s in January?
    If ppl quit NATCA then they are stupid. I'm not sure if ppl are seriously considering dropping out, but it's defiantly not the solution.

    Hey I just wanna make sure you know I'm not trying to be confrontational with you. I'm just responding to your questions. I respect you defending NATCA. I'm a supporter but obviously not a supporter of this MOU. Something needed to change, but not this drastic in my opinion.

  18. #598
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by KSDL View Post
    GFYS and twice on Sunday... and give back the extra salary you have made as a result of ending the imposed work rules of the white book.
    As someone who wasn't in the agency during the white book can you tell me some articles or things in effect that were so bad? Like a top 5. I'm trying to find a copy of the thing but can't seem to locate one.

  19. #599
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by outacontroller View Post
    As someone who wasn't in the agency during the white book can you tell me some articles or things in effect that were so bad? Like a top 5. I'm trying to find a copy of the thing but can't seem to locate one.
    You can read an archived copy at library.natca.net. Obviously, the biggest written changes in working conditions were in pay and dress code. I learned six months after D2 that D2 was the new CPC. And when I checked out, I could earn an Organizational Success Increase or a Superior Contribution Increase at the FAA's discretion to add to my base. Base salary without locality for a new ATC-6 CPC then was $44,750; as of January 10 of this year, it is $62,291. Dress code was business casual, with supervisors empowered to send you home on your own annual leave to change your clothes if it didn't meet their standards.

    But the worst part of the White Book period was not what was written in the White Book. The worst part was that local management was encouraged to fight the union on whatever petty grounds by senior management all the way up to Blakey herself, because they knew that FLRA would slow-roll our appeals as long as possible. They tried firing six developmentals at ZDC who had come in to work a holiday as A-sides because they got conflicting information about whether they could, although they were ultimately reinstated; other developmentals in their probationary periods were not so lucky. The return to binding arbitration in 2009 was premised on eliminating this mass of backlogged grievances (I think it was close to 200,000).

  20. #600
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Guaranteed 2 hours of OT on your day off was a nice one

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