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  1. #601
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by walters View Post
    Guaranteed 2 hours of OT on your day off was a nice one
    Oh yeah, commute for 50min, work for 2 hours, get sent home, drive another 50. It as awesome.

  2. #602
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    It would be nice if Trish or Paul would address everyone's frustrations on this MOU! They work for us, can't we demand some kind of hearing?

  3. #603
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    They (and the NEB who supported it) were elected to their positions to represent the membership. And their policies and actions are driven by the convention body, or in pursuit of the same.

    The NEB worked to create the policy because it was their belief it was a benefit to the membership and NATCA at large. I can't imagine the decision was made in a vacuum, and there have been innumerable discussions about it since, not the least of which was Iacopelli's recorded discussion.

    What kind of hearing would you have? For them to hear more frustration? Do you genuinely believe they are unaware of the pains caused by the change? Or further didn't weigh the pain vs the (at least peceived) long-term benefits?

    They worked for the membership by working to enact this very MOU and further codify it in the Slate Book. If you are unhappy with their leadership and the direction NATCA has taken, I really think your only remaining recourse is to vote other people in to NEB positions, and work to convince the next convention body that the current policy is not effective for our union.

    Not trying to be glib about this. I don't know what more you're going to get or can expect to get than what you've received from national to date. And I think the err@list.natca.net is still available to handle specific questions.

  4. #604
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by BeaconSlash View Post
    Do you genuinely believe they are unaware of the pains caused by the change?
    I am still convinced they don't understand how badly this hurts small facilities. No one involved in this MOU's creation is from one and all of the criticism they get from the 20-CPC and below places they either dismiss or don't understand. No one is advocating for the entry level guys on this. I do believe that they realize people are upset at a lot of places though.

    This MOU is a major inconvenience for people at centers, core 30s, and large tracons. I totally understand that. However, it is career-ending for the low levels unless it gets changed, which it probably will. It's just a matter of how long.

  5. #605
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by thirtythree View Post
    I am still convinced they don't understand how badly this hurts small facilities. No one involved in this MOU's creation is from one and all of the criticism they get from the 20-CPC and below places they either dismiss or don't understand. No one is advocating for the entry level guys on this. I do believe that they realize people are upset at a lot of places though.

    This MOU is a major inconvenience for people at centers, core 30s, and large tracons. I totally understand that. However, it is career-ending for the low levels unless it gets changed, which it probably will. It's just a matter of how long.
    incoveneinve for centers? Pretty sure more people were eligible to move from small facilities on each panel then from centers....

  6. #606
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by BeaconSlash View Post
    They (and the NEB who supported it) were elected to their positions to represent the membership. And their policies and actions are driven by the convention body, or in pursuit of the same.

    The NEB worked to create the policy because it was their belief it was a benefit to the membership and NATCA at large. I can't imagine the decision was made in a vacuum, and there have been innumerable discussions about it since, not the least of which was Iacopelli's recorded discussion.

    What kind of hearing would you have? For them to hear more frustration? Do you genuinely believe they are unaware of the pains caused by the change? Or further didn't weigh the pain vs the (at least peceived) long-term benefits?

    They worked for the membership by working to enact this very MOU and further codify it in the Slate Book. If you are unhappy with their leadership and the direction NATCA has taken, I really think your only remaining recourse is to vote other people in to NEB positions, and work to convince the next convention body that the current policy is not effective for our union.

    Not trying to be glib about this. I don't know what more you're going to get or can expect to get than what you've received from national to date. And I think the err@list.natca.net is still available to handle specific questions.
    I'd like to have a hearing/discussion to overturn and/or change this MOU. I don't believe this MOU helps anyone except the FAA. People at N90 and ZNY are stuck at those facilities for LIFE because of their incumbent ability to hire people in an orderly fashion. Please don't get me started on theses target numbers, what a joke! They've had 30 years to see this coming and we have to pay for it, why? It shouldn't come to the point of people threatening their membership to be heard or vote out Reps, the MOU will still be around. Have you read MJ's letter to congress on why on so many levels this MOU is wrong? I understand it's horrible people are leaving over this but what else can they do if they're given the middle finger when they ask it to be changed, besides vote? I believe these people want an open discussion on how to make it better, not vote or withdraw. I hear so many people talk about the MOU on a daily basis and they all say they're being ignored when they complain. They shouldn't be ignoring the hand that feeds them. For the record I'd never leave NATCA but this MOU was a horrible decision for its members!
    Last edited by RomeoNovember; 09-29-2016 at 08:17 PM.

  7. #607
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by thirtythree View Post
    I am still convinced they don't understand how badly this hurts small facilities. No one involved in this MOU's creation is from one and all of the criticism they get from the 20-CPC and below places they either dismiss or don't understand. No one is advocating for the entry level guys on this. I do believe that they realize people are upset at a lot of places though.

    This MOU is a major inconvenience for people at centers, core 30s, and large tracons. I totally understand that. However, it is career-ending for the low levels unless it gets changed, which it probably will. It's just a matter of how long.
    Agree!!!!!!!' What about those fat staff low level facilities? Lower their target number and let's send them to starving facilities.

  8. #608
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jdatc624 View Post
    incoveneinve for centers? Pretty sure more people were eligible to move from small facilities on each panel then from centers....
    Yeah a lot of people at small facilities are pissed cause it's going to take them a few more years than planned to move up and are angry it's aimed to staff the big understaffed facilities, but they seem to forget that at centers like ZOA/ZAU and tracons like N90/C90/A80 this MOU means you will NEVER leave.

  9. #609
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Yeah. Our target number is over 200, so each person counts as less than a half a percent. We're currently about 40 short right now, we have more than 50 projected to leave or retire on the spreadsheet as well. It takes 3 years to train someone and more than half will fail.



    THIS

    POLICY

    NATCA should be ashamed of themselves.

    And yes the old way was better. Knowing you had 3-5 years before you could leave was infinitely better than knowing that maybe in a few years one person may qualify to leave, but that person will be whoever puts into the most needed facility, and with the demand to leave we will instantly be back at average so we will never build a surplus. Taking this facility and "just ERR once you certify!" was a mistake. I had more choice in what base i went to in the military which is just sad.

  10. #610
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Not to mention working with a bunch miserable people that don't want to be there.

  11. #611
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaLima View Post
    Yeah. Our target number is over 200, so each person counts as less than a half a percent. We're currently about 40 short right now, we have more than 50 projected to leave or retire on the spreadsheet as well. It takes 3 years to train someone and more than half will fail.



    THIS

    POLICY

    NATCA should be ashamed of themselves.

    And yes the old way was better. Knowing you had 3-5 years before you could leave was infinitely better than knowing that maybe in a few years one person may qualify to leave, but that person will be whoever puts into the most needed facility, and with the demand to leave we will instantly be back at average so we will never build a surplus. Taking this facility and "just ERR once you certify!" was a mistake. I had more choice in what base i went to in the military which is just sad.
    i don't remember which spreadsheet it was on, but there was a list of current staffing, # of inbounds required to bring staffing to national average based on average success rate, and # of inbounds actually headed to the facility. My facility was around 130/250, 465 inbounds required. Actual # of inbounds...18.

  12. #612
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by NovemberEcho View Post
    i don't remember which spreadsheet it was on, but there was a list of current staffing, # of inbounds required to bring staffing to national average based on average success rate, and # of inbounds actually headed to the facility. My facility was around 130/250, 465 inbounds required. Actual # of inbounds...18.
    Ya but on the bright side, all 18 will make it through training, right?

  13. #613
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by NovemberEcho View Post
    Yeah a lot of people at small facilities are pissed cause it's going to take them a few more years than planned to move up and are angry it's aimed to staff the big understaffed facilities, but they seem to forget that at centers like ZOA/ZAU and tracons like N90/C90/A80 this MOU means you will NEVER leave.
    Staff them with who?

  14. #614
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    A80 bidding 2017
    57 CPCs (our daily staffing number)
    21 trainees
    12 FD only aka already washed out

    CPC Target is 102

  15. #615
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by BrewnATC View Post
    Staff them with who?
    The suggestion we had for Paul and Trish was to make a waiver for anyone wanting to move up to a top 10 critically staffed facility (N90, C90, A80, MIA, etc) and grant them a six month release date from wherever they currently are working.

  16. #616
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by NovemberEcho View Post
    i don't remember which spreadsheet it was on, but there was a list of current staffing, # of inbounds required to bring staffing to national average based on average success rate, and # of inbounds actually headed to the facility. My facility was around 130/250, 465 inbounds required. Actual # of inbounds...18.
    N90 (probably older data so let us know)
    135 CPCs out of 225
    29 in training
    3 inbounds
    140 more inbounds to meet national average
    193 more inbounds to meet staffing target

    I'm sure the success rates are based on some bull shit manipulated number just like here so N90 will need even more people than this to staff up...

  17. #617
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by phillyman2633 View Post
    Ya but on the bright side, all 18 will make it through training, right?
    Your my boy blu!

  18. #618
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertB View Post
    The suggestion we had for Paul and Trish was to make a waiver for anyone wanting to move up to a top 10 critically staffed facility (N90, C90, A80, MIA, etc) and grant them a six month release date from wherever they currently are working.
    As of right now, the only way to get out of a "red" facility is to go to N90 or C90 since their specific release policy and return rights MOU is still in effect. Maybe they could expand that to a few more facilities. I thought I saw you guys and MIA getting 3 or 4 people per panel so far though. I'm sure there's a limit on how many trainees you can handle at a time.

  19. #619
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by BrewnATC View Post
    Staff them with who?
    The lower level country clubs that have 20 as there target number when they only need 15 because they only work 2-3 hours on position, ��!

  20. #620
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    Re: ERR MOU Change Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by TimShady View Post
    As of right now, the only way to get out of a "red" facility is to go to N90 or C90 since their specific release policy and return rights MOU is still in effect. Maybe they could expand that to a few more facilities. I thought I saw you guys and MIA getting 3 or 4 people per panel so far though. I'm sure there's a limit on how many trainees you can handle at a time.
    First Panel-
    Level 7 up/down washout

    Second Panel-
    level 5 up/down selected and accepted offer
    Level 7 tower controller (prior washout here) who accepted
    Level 11 controller who also had a hardship

    Third Panel-
    Level 11 controller who accepted offer
    Level 8 up/down controller
    2 x level 6 up/down controllers
    2 x level 5 up/down controllers

    I'm sure I'm missing some, but those are the ones I remember. Most of them didn't accept the offer...

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