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  1. #21
    natcababe's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    YEARS ago I too felt that someday I might want to get ahead in my career and maybe someday be a supervisor or manager.....Now after all these years I realize that shit floats and there is no way in hell I would ever want to be a supervisor. After Blakey wiped her butt with our contract and imposed the white book, supervisors went to St Louis and were giddy with the possibility of having so much power over us. They cut new hire pay and froze mine saying they can't afford to pay us that much. Then they bought just at my facility, new carpet, new counter tops, big screen tvs, leather couches, new refrige, new stove, 3 new microwaves, new sink, new breakroom chairs, new controller chairs, new office furniture and chairs, new computers, new clocks, new faucets for kitchen and restroom, new patio furniture, new gas grill......the list goes on. I can't get a day off and the sups get all the time off they want, keep getting raises and cash awards meanwhile making sure I get at least 5 hours or more on position a day.....
    It is US AGAINST THEM!!! You are not bettering yourself by taking a sup position, you are whoring yourself out to the FAA at the expense of all the other controllers. Seniority doesn't really mean shit anyway, I have 17 years in and can't get the days off I want and since there are so many contollers with more seniority who are younger than me, I will NEVER get the days off I want before I retire.

  2. #22
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Brilliant post Natcababe!!

  3. #23
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by natcababe View Post
    YEARS ago I too felt that someday I might want to get ahead in my career and maybe someday be a supervisor or manager.....Now after all these years I realize that shit floats and there is no way in hell I would ever want to be a supervisor. After Blakey wiped her butt with our contract and imposed the white book, supervisors went to St Louis and were giddy with the possibility of having so much power over us. They cut new hire pay and froze mine saying they can't afford to pay us that much. Then they bought just at my facility, new carpet, new counter tops, big screen tvs, leather couches, new refrige, new stove, 3 new microwaves, new sink, new breakroom chairs, new controller chairs, new office furniture and chairs, new computers, new clocks, new faucets for kitchen and restroom, new patio furniture, new gas grill......the list goes on. I can't get a day off and the sups get all the time off they want, keep getting raises and cash awards meanwhile making sure I get at least 5 hours or more on position a day.....
    It is US AGAINST THEM!!! You are not bettering yourself by taking a sup position, you are whoring yourself out to the FAA at the expense of all the other controllers. Seniority doesn't really mean shit anyway, I have 17 years in and can't get the days off I want and since there are so many contollers with more seniority who are younger than me, I will NEVER get the days off I want before I retire.
    If it's that bad, why are you still an ATCS? Just curious.

  4. #24
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by killswitch View Post
    If it's that bad, why are you still an ATCS? Just curious.
    WHAT?? are u one of those "off the side of the street" guys that have no clue what REAL air traffic is?? if so, just take ur 89% AT-SAT and "highly qualified" and tell us who u are. u can rest assured that ur not "highly qualified."

    despite all that is going on with the white book, most of us still enjoy this job and enjoy separating planes. if you don't endure to do the same then don't apply to those PUNANI job applications that the FAA is putting out to you "SOTS" guys.

    btw SOTS=OTS
    side of the street = off the street.

    boy, the pride of being a controller has gone down the shitter with all these SOTS guys.

  5. #25
    killswitch's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by Roddy_Piper View Post
    WHAT?? are u one of those "off the side of the street" guys that have no clue what REAL air traffic is?? if so, just take ur 89% AT-SAT and "highly qualified" and tell us who u are. u can rest assured that ur not "highly qualified."

    despite all that is going on with the white book, most of us still enjoy this job and enjoy separating planes. if you don't endure to do the same then don't apply to those PUNANI job applications that the FAA is putting out to you "SOTS" guys.

    btw SOTS=OTS
    side of the street = off the street.

    boy, the pride of being a controller has gone down the shitter with all these SOTS guys.
    Am I not allowed to ask a legit question?

    I never proclaimed to be highly qualified or anything. I'm just curious why anyone would want to do a job that they sound so pissed off and discouarged by. I don't think I asked anything unreasonable?

    Why do you have to make it a personal attack rather than just seeing I asked a sincere, legit question?

    I think you should have pride in your career. I'm just not sure why anyone would want to stick in a career that makes them feel that horrid?

    Dare I ask for a more humane response? And why does my background discredit my ability? Aren't the majority of those up for retirement "OTS" guys as well? I'm sure a lot of them are amazing at what they do and no one would gripe at them for how they got there.

    And for your information I did go to CTI school, I did apply OTS, and I did score in the upper half on my AT-SAT (whatever the hell that means to the FAA.)

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
    8/11/08 - Geo Preferences
    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
    1/29/09 - Selected
    2/27/09 - NY PEPC Received TOL
    7/15/09 - Redirect offer
    7/20/09 - FOL
    8/3/09 - Academy Basics
    10/15/09 - Graduated Basics
    10/19/09 - At my facility
    6/15/11 - Certified Professional Controller

  6. #26
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by Roddy_Piper View Post
    WHAT?? are u one of those "off the side of the street" guys that have no clue what REAL air traffic is?? if so, just take ur 89% AT-SAT and "highly qualified" and tell us who u are. u can rest assured that ur not "highly qualified."

    despite all that is going on with the white book, most of us still enjoy this job and enjoy separating planes. if you don't endure to do the same then don't apply to those PUNANI job applications that the FAA is putting out to you "SOTS" guys.

    btw SOTS=OTS
    side of the street = off the street.

    boy, the pride of being a controller has gone down the shitter with all these SOTS guys.
    I don't mean to be controversial because probably you and I could sit down and have a beer together and be great friends (just the type of guy I like to think I am), but that comment came accross as elitest and arrogant. I fully admit being a SOTS or OTS guy or however you want to classify me in as derogatory manner as you can, but generalizing is something you should try to stay away from. If you want to sit down and compare credentials I think I can hold my own. Maybe my 100 on the AT-SAT is meaningless, but that is not all that gets taken into account and that isn't all I bring to the table. I believe my college degree and successfully working in the private sector for 6+ years has prepared me also. The reality unfortunately is that I will probably need to prepare myself for unjust prejudice as you just demonstrated, but I chose this field understanding that this would probably be the case since I am approaching the age limit and cannot go the CTI route. All I can do is go into this with an open mind and prove to you and every other "well qualified" person that I do belong.

    I don't think killswitch was trying to insult anyone, but was asking a legit question. I think were all trying to accomplish the same goal here which is to seperate planes, make a good living and hopefully enjoy the ride. I say let a person's work prove his worth instead of jumping to conclusions based on stereotypes. So far in life I have done well and I intend to keep that streak alive in this endeavor. I look forward to working with you all.

  7. #27
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_Scarn View Post
    I think were all trying to accomplish the same goal here which is to seperate planes, make a good living and hopefully enjoy the ride. I say let a person's work prove his worth instead of jumping to conclusions based on stereotypes. So far in life I have done well and I intend to keep that streak alive in this endeavor. I look forward to working with you all.
    Thank God there is still sanity around here somewhere...

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
    8/11/08 - Geo Preferences
    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
    1/29/09 - Selected
    2/27/09 - NY PEPC Received TOL
    7/15/09 - Redirect offer
    7/20/09 - FOL
    8/3/09 - Academy Basics
    10/15/09 - Graduated Basics
    10/19/09 - At my facility
    6/15/11 - Certified Professional Controller

  8. #28
    The Heatles's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    you both have no clue yet...

    Most controllers were hired under different working conditions and lately things have changed for the worse. Many have too much invested already to give up on it and try something else. Plus we love our jobs to death, unfortunately we do it under conditions that we dont agree with.

    Lastly, If you cant handle a little internet criticism then you are in for a world of hurt when you actually start training. The training program will not be a high point of your life emotionally thats for sure. Ive seen grown-ass men run out of an IFR room crying. That was what I saw on my day 1 and I'll never forget it.

    As for college education and your at-sat score... its pretty meaningless to be honest. Shows you can take tests well but its nothing like REAL air traffic control.

  9. #29
    Pants81's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    ATC is Crazy....I love it!

  10. #30
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by bravo zulu View Post
    you both have no clue yet...

    Most controllers were hired under different working conditions and lately things have changed for the worse. Many have too much invested already to give up on it and try something else. Plus we love our jobs to death, unfortunately we do it under conditions that we dont agree with.

    Lastly, If you cant handle a little internet criticism then you are in for a world of hurt when you actually start training. The training program will not be a high point of your life emotionally thats for sure. Ive seen grown-ass men run out of an IFR room crying. That was what I saw on my day 1 and I'll never forget it.

    As for college education and your at-sat score... its pretty meaningless to be honest. Shows you can take tests well but its nothing like REAL air traffic control.
    I'm not disagreeing with you that the conditions are probably less than ideal. I'm sure you love your job for the same reasons I believe I will love my job. I don't deny either that this will be one of the most stressful times of my life and there was a day when things were better. All I was making a point was that just because someone asks a simple question, why all the negativity? Why flame someone over a harmless question? I don't think it was killswitch or me that reacted negatively or showed any sign of "struggling to handle a little bit of internet criticism". I just don't think you should judge a whole group of people because they come from a different background than you. As I stated earlier we're all in this together. My succeeding or your succeeding doesn't effect each others pay. Why not be more positive about who you're going to be working with?

    I will disagree with you on one point though. College and doing well on the AT-SAT proves more than just test taking abilities and isn't exactly meaningless in my opinion. Maybe I'm way off here (which is possible because I am green at this), but I see the first 3 years as a time where I will be using my proven ability to learn (college) everything about this job, I will be taking tests up until the point of CPC (AT-SAT score, aptitude and test taking ability), and I will be applying everything I learn to be an effective controller (6+ years working/applying my degree). Obviously that is a simplified version of what's to come and probably a little naive. I've read other posts of Roddy Piper and he has given some good info and obviously is a bright person. I just don't think that post was one of them. I thought it was a bit over the top and a little judgmental.

  11. #31
    killswitch's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by bravo zulu View Post
    you both have no clue yet...
    That's right. I'm some dumb bloke who couldn't separate my own ass cheeks. I've heard it before. Here's the thing, I never once implied I had some "vast knowledge" of air traffic control and that all who gripe a little are a bunch of overpaid sissies. Not at all. Just asked a legit question.

    Agent hit the nail on the head. Why can't some of you guys lighten up instead of jump at the chance to rip heads off? Not all of you are like that but man... You can go from being some of the most helpful to the biggest ass hats in seconds.

    None the less, I still enjoy the chat around here and a few negatives aren't going to stop me from sticking around.

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
    8/11/08 - Geo Preferences
    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
    1/29/09 - Selected
    2/27/09 - NY PEPC Received TOL
    7/15/09 - Redirect offer
    7/20/09 - FOL
    8/3/09 - Academy Basics
    10/15/09 - Graduated Basics
    10/19/09 - At my facility
    6/15/11 - Certified Professional Controller

  12. #32
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    passive aggressive and personal attacks? I love it... I say you have no clue what the work environment is like and you say that Im calling you a dumb bloke who cant spread his ass. And now Im an ass hat? All I did was explain where he was coming from with no personal reference what-so-ever and I get attacked, haha. You Community College guys are so defensive.

    Ive seen people who know the books inside and out but like you say, "cant separate their ass cheeks with two hands". But hey, good job on the test that is designed to allow everyone who takes it to get an "Above Average" score. Be sure to tell your trainer that the at-sat test says you are above average. He'll take good care of you.

    And by the way... most "tests" are performance driven.

  13. #33
    killswitch's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by bravo zulu View Post
    passive aggressive and personal attacks? I love it... I say you have no clue what the work environment is like and you say that Im calling you a dumb bloke who cant spread his ass. And now Im an ass hat? All I did was explain where he was coming from with no personal reference what-so-ever and I get attacked, haha. You Community College guys are so defensive.

    Ive seen people who know the books inside and out but like you say, "cant separate their ass cheeks with two hands". But hey, good job on the test that is designed to allow everyone who takes it to get an "Above Average" score. Be sure to tell your trainer that the at-sat test says you are above average. He'll take good care of you.

    And by the way... most "tests" are performance driven.
    Fair enough, maybe I overreacted. But none the less, the attitude that runs around here from the more experienced folks tends to lean towards the side that all the newbies are clueless. Which may be true in some cases, but not in all.

    As for defensive, I don't think it's just the "community college" guys.

    And when the hell did I say my test score mattered? The only thing that does is make me an option and that's fine with me. No moron would truly believe that his AT-SAT makes him the most capable future controller in the world.

    I didn't intend to hi-jack the thread. None the less, I still asked a legit question. And where Roddy is coming from had nothing to do with my question either. Agent is correct. Roddy is extremely bright and one of the most informative but that comment was definitely not his shining moment.

    So I do apologize that I came off brash, but it gets really old hearing, "You don't understand," "You have no idea," "You are clueless." I'm well aware I don't have a complete understanding, I don't need anyone elses ego to help me realize it.

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
    8/11/08 - Geo Preferences
    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
    1/29/09 - Selected
    2/27/09 - NY PEPC Received TOL
    7/15/09 - Redirect offer
    7/20/09 - FOL
    8/3/09 - Academy Basics
    10/15/09 - Graduated Basics
    10/19/09 - At my facility
    6/15/11 - Certified Professional Controller

  14. #34
    Towerboss's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    The honest truth to it all is... College Degrees, test scores, and AT-SAT's they all mean squat when it comes time to applying the shit on the floor. All I have to say is keep an open mind and you'll see.
    TB

  15. #35
    oneatcer's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by killswitch View Post
    Am I not allowed to ask a legit question?

    I never proclaimed to be highly qualified or anything. I'm just curious why anyone would want to do a job that they sound so pissed off and discouarged by. I don't think I asked anything unreasonable?

    Why do you have to make it a personal attack rather than just seeing I asked a sincere, legit question?

    I think you should have pride in your career. I'm just not sure why anyone would want to stick in a career that makes them feel that horrid?

    Dare I ask for a more humane response? And why does my background discredit my ability? Aren't the majority of those up for retirement "OTS" guys as well? I'm sure a lot of them are amazing at what they do and no one would gripe at them for how they got there.

    And for your information I did go to CTI school, I did apply OTS, and I did score in the upper half on my AT-SAT (whatever the hell that means to the FAA.)

    Switch,

    Stop begging for a "more humane response", and grow a set. We are a band of brothers that are mostly A-type personalities, thick skinned, and criticize each other relentlessly. The "horrid" feelings you mention are problems with the past vs present working conditions and pay issues. It has nothing to do with the love of working traffic. Also, by far the vast majority of near retirees that I know are ex-military or FSS, NOT OTS. So, after walking the walk for a couple of years (and making it), you can come back to this site and answer your own questions.

  16. #36
    oneatcer's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by Towerboss View Post
    The honest truth to it all is... College Degrees, test scores, and AT-SAT's they all mean squat when it comes time to applying the shit on the floor. All I have to say is keep an open mind and you'll see.
    TB,

    Can you take a little credit time to come helps us clean up the crap you left on our floor? We are all tired of walking in it. Please bring your own rags....HaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaH!!!!

  17. #37
    killswitch's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by oneatcer View Post
    Switch,

    Stop begging for a "more humane response", and grow a set. We are a band of brothers that are mostly A-type personalities, thick skinned, and criticize each other relentlessly. The "horrid" feelings you mention are problems with the past vs present working conditions and pay issues. It has nothing to do with the love of working traffic. Also, by far the vast majority of near retirees that I know are ex-military or FSS, NOT OTS. So, after walking the walk for a couple of years (and making it), you can come back to this site and answer your own questions.
    Judging by the avatar, and the word of my wife, I'm pretty sure I have a fully functional set, thanks. As for begging for a response? I'm not. Just to be treated a little better than dirt which I sure as hell try to do for others. I don't think that's too much to ask.

    But it's not worth my time. Continue the thread, and I'll be the first to concede from the topic.

    Although, all this talk of fecal matter gets me... stimulated?

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
    8/11/08 - Geo Preferences
    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
    1/29/09 - Selected
    2/27/09 - NY PEPC Received TOL
    7/15/09 - Redirect offer
    7/20/09 - FOL
    8/3/09 - Academy Basics
    10/15/09 - Graduated Basics
    10/19/09 - At my facility
    6/15/11 - Certified Professional Controller

  18. #38
    Towerboss's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by oneatcer View Post
    TB,

    Can you take a little credit time to come helps us clean up the crap you left on our floor? We are all tired of walking in it. Please bring your own rags....HaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaH!!!!
    Yall don't want me back. I'm the redheaded stepchild now. oh and cat's out of the bag here too. :|
    TB

  19. #39
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    I got an 86 on that test...its still on my moms fridge, I am ready to get rocked!

  20. #40
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by Towerboss View Post
    Yall don't want me back. I'm the redheaded stepchild now. oh and cat's out of the bag here too. :|
    That red fuzz on your chin gave you away as a true redhead. And you know your welcome back here anytime..see you in a few years.

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