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  1. #41
    oneatcer's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by killswitch View Post
    Judging by the avatar, and the word of my wife, I'm pretty sure I have a fully functional set, thanks. As for begging for a response? I'm not. Just to be treated a little better than dirt which I sure as hell try to do for others. I don't think that's too much to ask.

    But it's not worth my time. Continue the thread, and I'll be the first to concede from the topic.

    Although, all this talk of fecal matter gets me... stimulated?
    Don't want you to concede from the topic, just learn from others mistakes. Your treatment gets better with every day of good performance, and not bragging on yourself. Nobody cares who you are, where you come from, or how you got here...can you perform? My advice has always been to keep your accolades to yourself, ask good questions, take criticism well, and be the best controller you can be. You will go far.

  2. #42
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    The union is shooting themselves in the foot, and here is the big reason. The management of the FAA is going to be retiring here in the next few years, just like the controllers. Right now, my peers and I all get along great, and when some of them move up to become management, it still would have been good. We also all have positive feelings for the NATCA. Take away the necessary supervisor/ controller relationship having to change, but these new supervisors would have a relatively good opinion on the union. Now, throw this incredibly stupid rule into effect. Now all of these new managers are going to go to the dark side with disgusting taste of union lingering in their mouth, and nothing but anger for us from day one. Keep the positive or somewhat decent relationship with new mangers; I think it would go a lot farther.

  3. #43
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    I don't like the new seniority rule either. Should be all or nothing, tying it to the nontrack is not productive. Supervisors are management, we are the workers. The Unions job is to protect their workers not management personel or management hopefulls. In my 26 year enroute career I have only experienced a handfull of supervisors returning to the unit. Only two for non disciplinary actions. When contollers leave the unit they don't intend on comming back. Get rid of the grandfather clause or make seniority cumulative BUM time.
    As for decent relationships with management, marry one if you want.

  4. #44
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Doesn't your CBA with the FAA on seniority cover this issue?

  5. #45
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    All supes are "controllers supes" until they are not....you'll know when you get the written warning or letter of proposed disciplinary action.

    Is there a union on the inside now? Never noticed it, except for the money being taken out of my pay. Things just got steadily worse all the time until the FAA shoved a fake contract up my behind sideways and took away money from me that hurt my retirement.

    Who says otherwise? Huh?

  6. #46
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Well killswith and agent scarn, if you think your questions are legit and sincere, than something is wrong! You say you cannot understand why anyone would stick around in a career that makes them feel that horrid, well that proves what roddy piper is saying. You do not understand what the white book has done, you do not understand what it has done to those of us who have been controlling airplanes, and you sure as hell do not and cannot understand what it is like coming OTS!

    It has made me miserable, fighting with finances, listening to the constant negativity at work, mangers that are running amuck, how could you understand that? With that said, to me your question is ridiculous. Why would we still do this job? It is not the job that we hate, and if you had read the post that roddy put out, he talked nothing of the work itself. We still love to work airplanes, love the feeling of going down the shitter with planes all of the sky, but HATE the environment the FAA has created.

    DO YOU GET IT YET? The environment that has been created is horrible, disgusting, but that will never change the feeling of working and separating airplanes like we do everyday!!!!!! Once you get in, and you see what it is like and it will make more sense. I mean really, what kind of a response did you think you were going to get from that question? ?can?t I ask a legitimate question??..here is one for you?..if you here us talking about how bad it is, and how low the pay is, why would you come in now? You can make more at Walmart!!

  7. #47
    killswitch's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by centerpuk_huh View Post
    Well killswith and agent scarn, if you think your questions are legit and sincere, than something is wrong! You say you cannot understand why anyone would stick around in a career that makes them feel that horrid, well that proves what roddy piper is saying. You do not understand what the white book has done, you do not understand what it has done to those of us who have been controlling airplanes, and you sure as hell do not and cannot understand what it is like coming OTS!

    It has made me miserable, fighting with finances, listening to the constant negativity at work, mangers that are running amuck, how could you understand that? With that said, to me your question is ridiculous. Why would we still do this job? It is not the job that we hate, and if you had read the post that roddy put out, he talked nothing of the work itself. We still love to work airplanes, love the feeling of going down the shitter with planes all of the sky, but HATE the environment the FAA has created.

    DO YOU GET IT YET? The environment that has been created is horrible, disgusting, but that will never change the feeling of working and separating airplanes like we do everyday!!!!!! Once you get in, and you see what it is like and it will make more sense. I mean really, what kind of a response did you think you were going to get from that question? “can’t I ask a legitimate question”…..here is one for you…..if you here us talking about how bad it is, and how low the pay is, why would you come in now? You can make more at Walmart!!
    "Well killswith and agent scarn, if you think your questions are legit and sincere, than something is wrong!"

    Congratulations to being the first person on the planet able to read the mind of another being!

    "You say you cannot understand why anyone would stick around in a career that makes them feel that horrid, well that proves what roddy piper is saying."

    Wrong that's not what I said at all. I simply asked if someone thought it was that bad, why would they continue working? It wasn't a personal thought of mine "I would never do that if it was that bad." I was just asking if it was that bad, why they wanted to.

    "It has made me miserable, fighting with finances, listening to the constant negativity at work, mangers that are running amuck, how could you understand that?"

    Congratulations on being in the only career where there is a negative enviroment! Anyone who's ever worked in their life can relate to a crappy work situation. As far as your finances, that is a personal issue, not your employers.

    I can understand it because I've worked in bad enviroments. But I keep my head down, do my agreed amount of work, go home and leave that life behind. Although your work enviroment may be bad, it's your attitude that takes it farther. Get over it, you aren't the only one who's worked in a bad situation.

    "but that will never change the feeling of working and separating airplanes like we do everyday!!!!!!"

    Good, and that's the attitude you need to have to get past any bad situation.

    "if you here us talking about how bad it is, and how low the pay is, why would you come in now?"

    The pay isn't that low. It may be low for what you think you are worth, but the pay in general is not low. I can understand why someone making $120,000/year getting hit down to $90,000/year would be upset. But me, not having that happen, doesn't make me sad to think I could make $90,000/year. Shoot, starting out around $40,000 would be a blessing.

    I have a family to provide for, and providing > enviroment. I feel for your situation and all, but honestly? Get over it. Use the tools you have to push farther for your wages, etc. But don't ##### at me because you are unhappy making $40-$60 grand a year.

    And to be quite honest, I have no problem with any one not liking me. Fact is, it's a message board. You don't know me from Adam. I don't have a clue who you are. Don't like what I have to say? Whine to someone else.

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
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    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
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  8. #48
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by killswitch View Post
    "Well killswith and agent scarn, if you think your questions are legit and sincere, than something is wrong!"

    Congratulations to being the first person on the planet able to read the mind of another being!

    "You say you cannot understand why anyone would stick around in a career that makes them feel that horrid, well that proves what roddy piper is saying."

    Wrong that's not what I said at all. I simply asked if someone thought it was that bad, why would they continue working? It wasn't a personal thought of mine "I would never do that if it was that bad." I was just asking if it was that bad, why they wanted to.

    "It has made me miserable, fighting with finances, listening to the constant negativity at work, mangers that are running amuck, how could you understand that?"

    Congratulations on being in the only career where there is a negative enviroment! Anyone who's ever worked in their life can relate to a crappy work situation. As far as your finances, that is a personal issue, not your employers.

    I can understand it because I've worked in bad enviroments. But I keep my head down, do my agreed amount of work, go home and leave that life behind. Although your work enviroment may be bad, it's your attitude that takes it farther. Get over it, you aren't the only one who's worked in a bad situation.

    "but that will never change the feeling of working and separating airplanes like we do everyday!!!!!!"

    Good, and that's the attitude you need to have to get past any bad situation.

    "if you here us talking about how bad it is, and how low the pay is, why would you come in now?"

    The pay isn't that low. It may be low for what you think you are worth, but the pay in general is not low. I can understand why someone making $120,000/year getting hit down to $90,000/year would be upset. But me, not having that happen, doesn't make me sad to think I could make $90,000/year. Shoot, starting out around $40,000 would be a blessing.

    I have a family to provide for, and providing > enviroment. I feel for your situation and all, but honestly? Get over it. Use the tools you have to push farther for your wages, etc. But don't ##### at me because you are unhappy making $40-$60 grand a year.

    And to be quite honest, I have no problem with any one not liking me. Fact is, it's a message board. You don't know me from Adam. I don't have a clue who you are. Don't like what I have to say? Whine to someone else.
    Once you update your timeline and it includes a location or OKC grad date, you would be surprised how quickly someone will figure out who you are. Don't burn bridges before getting to where you are going and don't burn them once there.

    You better have people liking you, they will be the ones who choose to train you or not. $40,000 is not a blessing when you are training and can be fired at really any point during the process. If you get fired from a job in the business world you have a ton of other places to go. You get fired from the FAA and you are on the street looking for a job in a totally different market. I have no family to provide for and am barely surviving working another job and getting $42,000 a year (which works out to about $24,000 after taxes and other deductions). If that is enough for your family then maybe you will enjoy your time in the FAA. The only thing that keeps everyone going is that maybe someday it will get better. If this environment was taking place at some random company everyone would be using their breaks to be on monster sending out resumes. But we are stuck here, which is why everyone is pissed, most have no where else to go at this point in their lives. That is why they continue to come to work.

  9. #49
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by killswitch View Post
    The pay isn't that low. It may be low for what you think you are worth, but the pay in general is not low. I can understand why someone making $120,000/year getting hit down to $90,000/year would be upset. But me, not having that happen, doesn't make me sad to think I could make $90,000/year. Shoot, starting out around $40,000 would be a blessing.

    I have a family to provide for, and providing > enviroment. I feel for your situation and all, but honestly? Get over it. Use the tools you have to push farther for your wages, etc. But don't ##### at me because you are unhappy making $40-$60 grand a year.

    And to be quite honest, I have no problem with any one not liking me. Fact is, it's a message board. You don't know me from Adam. I don't have a clue who you are. Don't like what I have to say? Whine to someone else.
    Again, you have no clue what the FAA is like. Wait until you realize the amount of responsibility on your shoulders day to day, then take a look at your paycheck and tell me it's enough. Here is a suggestion: stick to the PUTNAT section, be a hero over there.

  10. #50
    killswitch's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by airboss
    Again, you have no clue what the FAA is like. Wait until you realize the amount of responsibility on your shoulders day to day, then take a look at your paycheck and tell me it's enough. Here is a suggestion: stick to the PUTNAT section, be a hero over there.
    << sigh >> Not going to even bother.

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
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  11. #51
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by killswitch View Post
    << sigh >> Not going to even bother.
    That is probablly a good idea. You have no clue what it is like, BUT YOU WILL SOON. I really hope all goes well for you and you can keep this "attitude" you have, becasue you are going to need it!!

    Honest, do not walk into your facility and spread your thoughts like you do on here if you want to get trained and checked out. If you disagree with what people feel, just go to work and do your job....please. Their is nothing worse than a FNG walking in and spreading his thoughts on why everyone is so miserable. Just keep your mouth closed, learn, and get signed off.....than you can try to change the world!

  12. #52
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by centerpuk_huh View Post
    Honest, do not walk into your facility and spread your thoughts like you do on here if you want to get trained and checked out. If you disagree with what people feel, just go to work and do your job....please. Their is nothing worse than a FNG walking in and spreading his thoughts on why everyone is so miserable. Just keep your mouth closed, learn, and get signed off.....than you can try to change the world!
    Sure thing.

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
    8/11/08 - Geo Preferences
    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
    1/29/09 - Selected
    2/27/09 - NY PEPC Received TOL
    7/15/09 - Redirect offer
    7/20/09 - FOL
    8/3/09 - Academy Basics
    10/15/09 - Graduated Basics
    10/19/09 - At my facility
    6/15/11 - Certified Professional Controller

  13. #53
    SRQ
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    I'm thinking Centerpuk and Airboss are probably right. At least until you get checked out. It's to easy for a probationary employee to get busted out. They have very little recourse.

    Enjoy the day.
    PATCO Member www.patco81.com

  14. #54
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by SRQ View Post
    I'm thinking Centerpuk and Airboss are probably right. At least until you get checked out. It's to easy for a probationary employee to get busted out. They have very little recourse.

    Enjoy the day.
    Like everyone else in this world, I am much more ballsy behind a computer desk than I'd ever be in an office =)

    The last thing I'd do as an employee is go against my co-workers. Especially when I am quite expendable.

    5/2/08 - Applied PUBNAT2
    7/8/08 - AT-SAT 93.8% (CHI)
    8/11/08 - Geo Preferences
    10/14/08 - Not Selected
    12/10/08 - Louisiana Inquiry / Accepted
    1/29/09 - Selected
    2/27/09 - NY PEPC Received TOL
    7/15/09 - Redirect offer
    7/20/09 - FOL
    8/3/09 - Academy Basics
    10/15/09 - Graduated Basics
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  15. #55
    SRQ
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    I am familiar with the expendable part.
    PATCO Member www.patco81.com

  16. #56
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by JetJammer View Post
    This is one of the best things to ever come out of a NATCA convention. If you have become a supe since 9/3/2006 you have helped the FAA enforce the IWR's on your fellow controllers. You have also gotten raises for doing little more than run a break list while your fellow controllers have gotten nothing but six day work weeks and more OJT duties. If you newbies out there think this amendment is dumb than in my opinion you think the IWR's are just fine and you are satisfied with your current pay.

    It puts the union in the same shoes the FAA is wearing when it sent me my pre-employment letter with the old payscale on it.

    Not only did I get hosed by the FAA out of my pay that I have in writing, I got hosed with no per-deim, and 8$ an hour out at OKC.

    Now the union does the same to it's own, by making the rule retroactive so those that had no idea they were going to be punished now are.

    How low can either side go? And when O is elected in 2 weeks, and 2 years down the road nothing is done about the contract, what then? When the bottom line is, the ATC system is working, airlines arn't going out of business, and the amount of deals are lower (thanks to PE's....but who's counting), WHY would someone "fix" it. We're workers remember, and the job is getting done.

    I know it's going to be awfully hard for the screwed crowd to pass up the almost double salary raise to be a flem.

    Am I bitter?

  17. #57
    Centerpuke's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by airboss View Post
    Again, you have no clue what the FAA is like.
    That's for sure! The FAA is a wonderfully screwed up way of life, haha. My first day at my facility I introduced myself to someone and the guy looked at me and said "Don't buy a house," and walked off!

    If these guys are getting this agitated over a little internet blogging, WHOA BUDDY, it is gonna be a funny sight when they get to their facility. Still think the new senority rule sucks though. I wouldn't mind getting a little sup/staff time in one day. I don't feel the least bit bad about that at all and I don't think anyone else should either. As long as you don't turn into some piece of shi*. I think it is absolutely possible to get some good people in there and change things. In fact, I think it would be a good strategy for NATCA to sneak some moles in, James Bond style!!

  18. #58
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    Quote Originally Posted by Centerpuke View Post
    That's for sure! The FAA is a wonderfully screwed up way of life, haha. My first day at my facility I introduced myself to someone and the guy looked at me and said "Don't buy a house," and walked off!
    The quicker you learn you can't make everyone happy, the better off you'll be. Most/plenty of the current guys worked their asses of to get there, and went through way more hazing than that I'm sure. Something like 50% of the academy failed, and then another 60%+ of those that made it to the facility didn't make it either.

    Noobs are looked at with caution, because the vet's know the academy isn't what it used to be, and neither is D or R school.

    No one is going to spoon feed you in this new world, so you better buckleup, buttercup

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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    This new senority rule is just another pointless move by the Union to do exactly what? I have been a union member for many years now and my faith in NATCA is diminishing by the second. Punishing your own is bad business. Then to make it retroactive? Why? How is this allowable? I see many ULPs being filed. Why would anyone returning from a detail join the union again? They are most definatley going to strive to move over to managment permenantly. The FAA is loving this I am sure. Now their ranks will be stronger than ever as NATCA's gets weaker. This is the beginning of the end for NATCA. Once a great union falling to pieces.

  20. #60
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    Re: Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

    If your not happy with having a secure, good paying job then why do you stay? I agree that some of the new rules stink, but we wake up each morning knowing that we will get a paycheck every other Tues.

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