Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

I Disappear When You Log In - Register

 

I Disappear When You Log In - Register

^^ The Advertisements above disappear once you log in. Not a member? Register Now, it's free! ^^
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23
  1. #1
    Newcomer

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    15

    Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    So I post usually over on the airlinepilotforums.com as forgot to bid. I'm an ATL 320 guy. Rarely have I ever had an issue with ATC but it's rather common to have a disagreement in the cockpit between each other about something related to ATC. So I had one such incident yesterday and I did a Google search and stumbled on an answer from this site. Thought I'd join just in case I ever want to ask a question or you want to ask a question to me.

    And if you do want to ask a question just know the answer will be honest, but may not reflect any real knowledge of what I'm really supposed to be doing per training or per what's in our ops spec. But I'll look up the answer.

  2. #2
    Senior Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    198

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Does Delta make you to ask for ride report per policy?

  3. #3
    Newcomer

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    15

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Aw man.

    There are so many different personalities and so set in their ways. No policy to ask. Some people are anxious flyers. Probably the same guys who ask for vectors around a simple puffy cloud at 6000 feet on a congested arrival. Some just have gotten the brunt of old FAs barking at them over the ride. Some probably seriously feared being sued. Seriously. They're the ones that ask for vectors around every cloud. But after a while that hyperness by some just becomes part of the cockpit culture. Some are surprised if you don't immediately ask for it and question you why don't you ask about the ride, so you beat them to the punch by asking.

    There are a few that do think the world revolves around them and have ltitle concept about everyone's place in this system. They're the ones who ask you questions that have you saying wtf and the guy beside them doing a face palm. There are not many but they make a lot of those calls.

  4. #4
    Senior Analyst

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    853

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Why does the Airbus slow so much inside the marker?

  5. #5
    NovemberEcho's Avatar
    Epic Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    4,191

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Why do some pilots like to slow 30+ miles away from the airport without letting ATC know they are slowing so the guy still doing 250kts behind him will run him over?

  6. #6
    Newcomer

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    15

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertB View Post
    Why does the Airbus slow so much inside the marker?
    Honestly. Despite slowing very poorly from 250 knots to 220 knots where I can put my first notch of flaps in the Bus does a really good job once you're already at 180 knots on slowing to approach. We probably could wait a little longer to configure and keep the speed up but most don't seem to do that. We’ve got two FOQA tattle tale computer constraints going on there, one requiring us to be fully configured at 1000’ AGL and the other making sure we don’t exceed flap speeds. If we keep the speed up to 1500’ and configure we might not be able to do it by 1000’ sometimes and if we rush it we might bust a flap speed.

    So generally at 2100’ ish on an ATL marker we command the autothrust to “managed speed” and it drops to idle until we’re at Vref which is 120-135 knots or so. We can immediately go gear down, flaps 3 at 175 knots and flaps full for landing at 167 knots. She slows fast then.

    The Douglas jets do a great job slowing at high speeds. They can go gear down at 300 and have flaps in at 280, the Bus is 250 and 205 for the equivalent setting. They can also descend on the 88 at 210 with flaps to 23 degrees out, the Bus at 210 is 0 flaps. That hurts. We use a lot of speed brakes. But what happens on the Douglas at the marker is you go gear down but then wait until it’s locked before you go landing flaps. That takes a little longer but once it gets going it’s a tank and the wing sucks so much it allows you to drop altitude and speed fast. And the 88/90 pilots love love love to be a team player and save gas, so they land at flaps 28 and not 40. When you do that you come in fast and at a high deck angle. If you watch the 88/90s come in and land look at their deck angle, especially the 90, some of them are very nose high and they don’t flare much because there just really isn’t much elevator authority there or tail strike margin. So on parallel runways you might notice the 88 dropping like a rock and slowing fast as heck outside the marker, but then inside the marker to 1000' it might take a little longer depending on pilot technique.

    FWIW, the 717 is always a full flap landing per the procedures on that plane. Vref with it’s little wing though is still 134 a majority of the time, the Bus will come in slower than that sometimes despite being heavier. Some 717 guys like to hold 180 to 1500’ and then configure. It works. But spacing is an issue.

    Can I throw a wrench into this? We have some variations going on throughout the fleet. On the 88/90 and 757/767 (best I can remember) we add a speed additive on final. Which is probably where all the wind check requests originated from. So normally we land at the published Vref speed + 5 knots. But in strong winds we go ½ the headwind + all of the gusts up to 20 knots. So a Vref of 136 could potentially be 156 on one of those jets or on an MD-90 at max landing weight with flaps 28, it could be 145 + 20 or 165 to the flare. And add in that 88 pilots are generally manually controlling the throttles on final so they might be even faster than that because of the human factor or a turbulent ride.

    The 320’s airspeed tape shows us our landing speed as calculated by the computer. In strong headwind situations it adds a factor and can also end up putting us at 150-160 knots instead of 125-135 knots which would be normal. You don’t second guess that or your landing might really suck. On the bus that system is called groundspeed mini and you don’t know it’s going to do it until it does it, nothing says there is a margin being added, you just notice it when it’s commanding 155 on final instead of the non wind speed of 129 which is being shown to you on the FMS.
    The 717 isn’t doing that. Those pilots are strongly encouraged to land with the autothrottles on and in doing so they’ve been told do not add an additive. So they come in Vref+5, or 134 knots generally while an 88 or 320 might be coming in at 160 behind them. The 717 fwiw could land with less than flaps full all the time but it’s an abnormal only procedure right now. Partly, there are no autobrakes on that plane so we generally take it easy on the brakes and don’t apply them until 80 knots on roll out. We will do it sooner in places like HOU/MDW/LGA but then we’re at the gate with hot brakes and on a quick turn will have to get them cooled in time for takeoff. The temp limit is very very low.

    So there. That's all I know about that.

  7. #7
    Newcomer

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    15

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Quote Originally Posted by NovemberEcho View Post
    Why do some pilots like to slow 30+ miles away from the airport without letting ATC know they are slowing so the guy still doing 250kts behind him will run him over?
    So why would a pilot do that?



    And not having any concept of the ATC system. Some guys never had good training on that because in their previous world the world did revolve around them. And some are just old school and learned from guys that were really old school on the 727.

    If an FO wants to slow like that, the right Captain will say no, keep your speed up your last assigned speed was 250. If the Captain does that, the FO may or may not correct him fwiw, or the FO might be there doing a facepalm or a quick FO might say "what speed do you need?" That might be their plea for backup from you.

    And there is some confusion about going into a class C or D where nobody calls out a speed and class B where you stick to the last assigned. Some keep last assigned when they were never assigned a speed and some don't get that you maintain last assigned.

    We have a real problem of guys dropping to the FAF crossing altitude as soon as they are cleared. I flew with a guy once who was adamant on going 250 knots at 2000 feet 17 miles from the airport. Why? Because we were cleared to 2000' and must go asap down to it regardless of the fact we lose visual contact with the airport at that altitude. Then the next thing that happens, at places like JAN, they go fast straight to the marker (because we can see it on the display) but we can't see the airport. Finally we do, we call it in sight, get cleared, start trying to slow, over shoot and go from too low to too high and then dive down on the airport and bust through the stabilized approach criteria. Or worse, they drop to the FAF altitude in BHM despite having only 100' clearance on towers to the southeast of the FAF. I'll say this, with some people, not all, you doing us a favor by clearing us to a lower altitude can backfire on the pilot who treats your "descend to" as being the equivalent of a drill sergeant saying ten hut.

    The company is all over guys for this and basically is encouraging no turns inside the marker and watch your descent path. So you might notice that especially at night. I mean some guys can pull off the base to final turn inside the marker, but then it fosters an environment where that becomes expected and if you goof it up, boom you're going around. Then you no longer look cool.

    So yes we have a problem that is being fixed on descending way too rapidly to the altitude you guys just cleared them to go to and thus losing sight of the airport and SA in the process. Especially at night since the airports are always the black hole in a sea of city lights. They need to stay higher longer and shoot a smoother 3:1 glide from altitude down to the FAF, not hit the FAF altitude 5-15 miles out. It's our problem, not yours. it's good to be cleared to the lower altitude but some guys do it... different.

    One thing that is extremely helpful, fwiw, is being cleared direct to a fix when approaching the airport area. Once on a fix most all of the planes have a VNAV system that will put us on a nice descent path and even tell us when we need to slow and it's all based on the FAF constraint. If we give it over to the autopilot, VNAV and auto throttles we can shoot a nice visual at night to a black hole airport and turn a perfect base to final and be on speed and 2 red and 2 white on the PAPI at the marker. It's great. But guys are just so used to being low that they feel too high on the VNAV path despite the PAPI/VASI telling them they're spot on.

    The next generation of pilots more used to magenta lines and not steam gauges will probably be a little more accurate on all of that. So I do prefer direct to a fix because if we're eye balling it on a vector it will look, well, like we're eye balling it. Some of us like to even on a downwind to places draw a perpendicular intercept to the FAF and NAV and VNAV that in. We look like champs even in strong winds but it's really the computer doing it.

  8. #8
    Newcomer

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    15

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Fwiw we at Delta are getting a new turbulence program on our Microsoft surface pros that we use in the cockpit. We are actually getting the surface pro 3 soon which has GPS and a moving map. That'll be nice.

    But we are not allowed to use the airplanes wifi with those things and supposedly they can tell if you do. But with the new program we will, once approved by the feds, will let us log into the wifi. The program shows a map of the US that's pretty detailed and it displays turbulence like a weather radar displays it. But it's very fine and a lot of zoom in detail and tailored to altitude and so forth. It also, I believe, shows turbulence reports from within the system. We do actually do position reports on that acars system on every flight beyond an hour. We can do extra turbulence reports out of courtesy and dispatch uses it. They'll publish turbulence reports for us but honestly those things come with last long positions and who wants to bother with that?

    So this system should be helpful with metrology's stuff, pireps and company reports on it. Hopefully, I hope, it shows convective activity because honestly the 320 radar is so... meh. It's hard to figure out where the storms are. We could use some help just to avoid areas all together.

  9. #9
    Senior Analyst

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    853

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    Thanks for the response and that's a ton of information to process! I was always curious as to why the Airbus and 757, especially the 300, would do ridiculously slow speeds inside the marker than everyone else. We, Atlanta ATC, always just blamed it on the pilots being former Northwest guys and not Delta pilots from pre merger. It goes with my mindset that 180 to AJAAY or wherever isn't best as you have a ton of compression with a 757 or Airbus so I'd rather run 160 to AJAAY and you're close enough to see your traffic or smell them. We use 210 knots all the time on the downwind and base (further from airport) because it has been beaten into us that 210 is the best descent speed for the fleet when it sounds like 210 is awful for the Airbus for descent without you having to use speed brakes to get down quicker. So what is your best descent speed? 200 knots? Will the 321 be better performing?

    Why is the 717 so awful on departure when it comes to climbing? We've been told it was due to "kick backs" from the engine manufacture for not using the engines at full power on takeoff or something like that. We were also told that when Delta took them from AirTran, they were going to be flown with a better climb rate and honestly, the climb rate now is worse than when Citrus pilots were flying them.

    How's wake RECAT going? Any noticeable turbulence in trail of 757s or heavies?

    Do you have any questions for us? I work at Atlanta TRACON and NovemberEcho and JAX work at New York TRACON.

  10. #10
    NovemberEcho's Avatar
    Epic Member

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    4,191

    Re: Delta Guy, Appreciate Info from Site

    I too am curious on the pilots perspective of RECAT. Also wondering how y'all found about it, meaning did your company/FAA brief you or did you suddenly find yourself 3.5 behind a 767 and wondered wth was going on.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •