ATC Hiring Changes Draw Protest

ColtsATC

Trusted Contributor
Aug 27, 2008
590
14
18
Its not about wether CTI people are better than OTS, it is the principle of the matter. People like us payed thousands to get the training to make our RESUME look attractive and to have an edge on hiring. Thats why people go to college. BS and BAs get hired over no education Basically, we got fleeeced and the last one holding the dinner check was the CTI students. They screwed us over. The CTI program lasted...2 years (beaver and a couple others have been around). Wasted a year and half of my life, money, and time for nothing. and Im not 20...I'm 28 married mortgage and a kid.
You PAID to go to college to get an education to have a chance of getting a job. You think the FAA screwed you over? How many other people do you think are out there with 4 year degrees and are working somewhere completely unrelated to their degree (or working at all)? I'm not against getting an education at all, but thinking you are entitled do a job because you spent money will get you nowhere. Shouldn't have put all of your eggs in one basket.
 

m1kehot3l

Trusted Member
Jun 5, 2013
368
1
18
I could sit here an complain all day about how veterans are getting screwed right now because we wont be hired off of the VRA and now we get a 10 to 15k pay cut and have to take the ATSAT and compete with college graduates, pilots, CTI grads, and OTS. But I wont because in the end I know the juice is worth the squeeze. If you want to be an airtraffic controller. Prove it. Show them.you have the qualifications to apply for the job then show them you have the aptitude. If you arent qualified to apply it is your fault. This is a federal position where you have peoples lives in your hands every day and you think you can just take a couple years of classroom training and be given that responsibility? Nope. Having a four year college degree or progressive work experience shows more responsibility than that.
 

CutYouUp

Rookie
Jan 7, 2014
46
0
6
I could sit here an complain all day about how veterans are getting screwed right now because we wont be hired off of the VRA and now we get a 10 to 15k pay cut and have to take the ATSAT and compete with college graduates, pilots, CTI grads, and OTS. But I wont because in the end I know the juice is worth the squeeze. If you want to be an airtraffic controller. Prove it. Show them.you have the qualifications to apply for the job then show them you have the aptitude. If you arent qualified to apply it is your fault. This is a federal position where you have peoples lives in your hands every day and you think you can just take a couple years of classroom training and be given that responsibility? Nope. Having a four year college degree or progressive work experience shows more responsibility than that.
VRA still has preference... CTI no longer has preference.. If VRA's were abruptly stripped of hiring preference they would have the right to be angry.. CTI's have the right to be angry.. If anything I think the new hiring change will help VRA's because currentyl there will no longer be hiring panels that are solely CTI.
 

aprout88

Newcomer
Sep 20, 2012
23
0
1
Colorado
Its not about wether CTI people are better than OTS, it is the principle of the matter. People like us payed thousands to get the training to make our RESUME look attractive and to have an edge on hiring. Thats why people go to college. BS and BAs get hired over no education Basically, we got fleeeced and the last one holding the dinner check was the CTI students. They screwed us over. The CTI program lasted...2 years (beaver and a couple others have been around). Wasted a year and half of my life, money, and time for nothing. and Im not 20...I'm 28 married mortgage and a kid.
Lets not forget why people with degrees get hired over those without in many cases. It is not simply because they paid money and have a piece of paper that says so. It is because they actually put forth an effort and bettered themselves. This can be said for those who went through military ATC and earned their qualifications all the same. No one ripped you off because you were never promised anything but CTI wasn't a waste of your time either. If you actually learned something in college it will show. Your resume WILL look better than the average Joe because you made it correctly and were able to demonstrate your drive. If you are the right guy for the job I'm sure they will find you.
 

Dcalcoda

Newcomer
Aug 21, 2013
19
3
3
I'm a CTI graduate and also an RPO at N90. If I learned anything about ATC, it's at my job working as an RPO. CTI taught me close to nothing. If I didn't work as an RPO, I would have zero confidence in having any ability to do this job. CTI was a huge waste of my time and money. But when I signed up, I knew there was no guarantee. People act like they would be handed a diploma and an offer letter in the same day.

I never thought that CTI would make me a great controller. But I did think that I would be put into a pool of other CTI students and also VRAs. Not tens of thousands of people with zero experience and zero passion about this job. My father retired last year as a Newark Approach controller after 28 years with the FAA. My grandfather was a mechanic for Pan Am. I've had an interest in this job since I can remember. That's why I signed up for the CTI program and that's why this whole thing is frustrating.
 

thedenti5t

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2014
86
4
8
I'm a CTI graduate and also an RPO at N90. If I learned anything about ATC, it's at my job working as an RPO. CTI taught me close to nothing. If I didn't work as an RPO, I would have zero confidence in having any ability to do this job.....
what you said?! I'm ex military and if there was one thing I learned from my first facility, it's that the school doesn't teach you much. You are sitting in class going over information that you have no idea how to use and not quite fully sure what it means. You learn everything through application. All the classrooms and sims don't mean much the first time you plug in for real. I don't know where the entitlement comes from.
 

skyblu1311

Newcomer
Feb 20, 2014
3
0
1
The AT-CTI pathway was as good a method as any to weed people out. Yes there might be people more suited for the job that could be hired off the street but do you guys really believe that the FAA has worked out a system for finding these people based off a silly bio screening?? Some of you guys are very self righteous either because you are already hired (don't care about your opinion), or because you are ex military (fair enough).
 

PhillyManlove

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2013
237
11
18
Philly
The AT-CTI pathway was as good a method as any to weed people out. Yes there might be people more suited for the job that could be hired off the street but do you guys really believe that the FAA has worked out a system for finding these people based off a silly bio screening?? Some of you guys are very self righteous either because you are already hired (don't care about your opinion), or because you are ex military (fair enough).

yes, its called the screen at the academy
 

CutYouUp

Rookie
Jan 7, 2014
46
0
6
The AT-CTI pathway was as good a method as any to weed people out. Yes there might be people more suited for the job that could be hired off the street but do you guys really believe that the FAA has worked out a system for finding these people based off a silly bio screening?? Some of you guys are very self righteous either because you are already hired (don't care about your opinion), or because you are ex military (fair enough).
Couldn't have said it any better
 

Dub

Rookie
Oct 14, 2013
28
2
3
19th Floor
The AT-CTI pathway was as good a method as any to weed people out. Yes there might be people more suited for the job that could be hired off the street but do you guys really believe that the FAA has worked out a system for finding these people based off a silly bio screening?? Some of you guys are very self righteous either because you are already hired (don't care about your opinion), or because you are ex military (fair enough).
You are correct...weed out people who don't have parents that could afford to send their kids to an aviation college. Or better yet, weed out people who didn't think it was a bad idea to get student loans for a specialized degree with no guarantee of employment. The FAA has not worked out a better way to find people but they did make a decision based on the fact that because CTI students didn't do any better overall than the OTS hires, they shouldn't get any preference in hiring. CTI students certainly have no right to compare themselves to VRA hires. I'm glad you don't care about my opinion now, but you will care when I am the one writing your OJT reports.
 

CutYouUp

Rookie
Jan 7, 2014
46
0
6
You are correct...weed out people who don't have parents that could afford to send their kids to an aviation college. Or better yet, weed out people who didn't think it was a bad idea to get student loans for a specialized degree with no guarantee of employment. The FAA has not worked out a better way to find people but they did make a decision based on the fact that because CTI students didn't do any better overall than the OTS hires, they shouldn't get any preference in hiring. CTI students certainly have no right to compare themselves to VRA hires. I'm glad you don't care about my opinion now, but you will care when I am the one writing your OJT reports.
Scholarships...? And y u mad tho?
 

Dub

Rookie
Oct 14, 2013
28
2
3
19th Floor
I'm not mad bro. Just so much crap about who is better qualified for the job when in the end it doesn't matter what their background is. I don't think that any applicant should be speculating who is more qualified than the next. When it comes down to it, no one cares what you did before you show up at your facility. If you get hired, you are qualified, the rest is up to you.
 

skyblu1311

Newcomer
Feb 20, 2014
3
0
1
Yeah you are right, why get a degree in anything when there aren't any guarantees to be hired for any job?? If you want to be a cop you should have a criminal justice degree, if you want to be a teacher you need degree in education, if you want to be a lawyer you have to pass the bar etc. That is how society works. You could hire O.T.S. for every job out there including the presidency of the United States and end up with excellent candidates, what makes ATC so special? You can go on believing that you are the best of the best, but that is just your ego talking, in reality you aren't that special and there are plenty of people with your skill set who could do your job better than you, including me. If one day the FAA truly devises a way to scientifically measure this job specific aptitude in people then this would make better sense to me, until then they are blindfolded throwing darts at a dart board.
 

CutYouUp

Rookie
Jan 7, 2014
46
0
6
I'm not mad bro. Just so much crap about who is better qualified for the job when in the end it doesn't matter what their background is. I don't think that any applicant should be speculating who is more qualified than the next. When it comes down to it, no one cares what you did before you show up at your facility. If you get hired, you are qualified, the rest is up to you.
Well said bro.. I just hope that everyone who sincerely and truly wants the job (for what it IS and NOT what it offers) gets an opportunity to prove themselves.
 

NovemberEcho

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
4,388
68
48
Long Island
Yeah you are right, why get a degree in anything when there aren't any guarantees to be hired for any job?? If you want to be a cop you should have a criminal justice degree, if you want to be a teacher you need degree in education, if you want to be a lawyer you have to pass the bar etc. That is how society works. You could hire O.T.S. for every job out there including the presidency of the United States and end up with excellent candidates, what makes ATC so special? You can go on believing that you are the best of the best, but that is just your ego talking, in reality you aren't that special and there are plenty of people with your skill set who could do your job better than you, including me. If one day the FAA truly devises a way to scientifically measure this job specific aptitude in people then this would make better sense to me, until then they are blindfolded throwing darts at a dart board.
Well the dartboard seems to have worked pretty well all those years before CTI came about...
 

Dub

Rookie
Oct 14, 2013
28
2
3
19th Floor
Yeah you are right, why get a degree in anything when there aren't any guarantees to be hired for any job?? If you want to be a cop you should have a criminal justice degree, if you want to be a teacher you need degree in education, if you want to be a lawyer you have to pass the bar etc. That is how society works. You could hire O.T.S. for every job out there including the presidency of the United States and end up with excellent candidates, what makes ATC so special? You can go on believing that you are the best of the best, but that is just your ego talking, in reality you aren't that special and there are plenty of people with your skill set who could do your job better than you, including me. If one day the FAA truly devises a way to scientifically measure this job specific aptitude in people then this would make better sense to me, until then they are blindfolded throwing darts at a dart board.
Most degrees complement a career path but are not exclusive to it. Lawyers have to pass the state bar exam as a licensing requirement, they didn't major in "Bar Exam" in college. I'm sure most teachers don't major in education, they can major in anything. Cops are like air traffic controllers, they don't have to go to college and school doesn't teach them how to be a good cop, it's a talent. You are correct when you said, "You can go on believing that you are the best of the best, but that is just your ego talking, in reality you aren't that special and there are plenty of people with your skill set who could do your job better than you, including me." I hope you are better than me, I hope there are plenty of people who can do better than me. The point is we need good people and we don't care where they come from just please do good work. In other news, apparently my "ego" talks a lot, it certified at two respected FAA facilities in four years.
 
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Dcalcoda

Newcomer
Aug 21, 2013
19
3
3
It comes down to the individual. Working as an RPO at N90, I've seen CTI hires succeed and I've seen VRAs succeed. I've also seen CTIs shit the bed and VRAs shit the bed. I've seen controllers with many years of radar experience do worse than a CTI student fresh out of the academy. You can all argue about who is more qualified until you're blue in the face but ultimately it comes down to the individual. Just because somebody went to college for 6 years studying law doesn't mean they'll make a great lawyer.

The issue isn't who makes a better controller. The issue is that we were told by our federal government that there are 2 paths to become an air traffic controller. Military or CTI. And many, like myself, followed the CTI path. I agree that VRAs should be considered more qualified, whether or not they actually are, because of the time they dedicated to serving our country. But I don't agree with being thrown into a pool with a bunch of OTS people who 2 months ago thought an air traffic controller waved orange sticks at airplanes. There's no sense of entitlement. I don't think I deserve a job simply because I completed a CTI program. But I do think that the FAA should have, at least, filtered through the remaining VRAs and CTIs before pulling this shit.
 
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RFDATM

Trusted Contributor
Nov 27, 2009
586
1
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IL
The Federal gov never said there were only two paths. CTI school admin might have fed you that line, but in reality there has been the OTS path for over 40 years. It was unfortunate that you were mislead by the CTI school as you could have followed the military ATC path and actually be doing the job.