ATC Hiring Changes Draw Protest

Jetstink

Rookie
Aug 21, 2009
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its not about my ego ya pricks.....its the principle of that we have this program of 40 schools go here get training otherwise we will not hire you. thats what the government said. the last OTS was 08 after that they said they would be hiring through CTI. They being the government. I did what I was told and got fuked. now Im 10 grand poorer for it and it means nothing. Not lookin for a shoulder to cry on. but it is bulshit
 

zach85t

Newcomer
Mar 25, 2011
6
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Salt Lake City
I first started researching ATC 4 years ago. I emailed a couple different people from the FAA, talked to a few controllers, and visited a local ARTCC. EVERYONE I spoke with said that there were two ways to become a controller: either go to a CTI school or join the military. I still have the emails from the FAA Careers Division saying this. Couple years and $25,000 later, the FAA tells me that my CTI degree is worthless.

This isn't about whether or not OTS hires are just as capable as CTI grads to become good controllers. It's about the FAA saying that the CTI degree they told us was needed, is now worthless. Oh and that AT-SAT that we made you study for, we're throwing that score out too.
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
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No doubt that an individual either has what it takes or does not.. However, one cannot argue with simple statistics.. CTI candidates have and will continue to succeed throughout training at a higher rate than OTS candidates.. Why was the CTI program created if it were to provide no benefit? I am happy this issue does not apply to you, but it does not mean your statements belittling CTI schools are valid.
Where are you pulling these statements from? OTS hires are having better success rates than CTI students across the board. The only reason the FAA even supported the CTI programs was to try and offset some of the costs to train potential controllers. OTS hiring worked in the early 80s and will work better than hiring from CTI programs now.
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
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BOOM. This is it. There was no where on that Bio that recognized CTI period. My thoughts are yes, maybe CTI wasn't the best form of training. But the way i see it is ALL lawyers go through law school... WHY? cause they are told they have to. Will all law grads be good at it? no.. are there better law schools than others? yes.. and what would happen if a law grad was told that he no longer needed schooling and would be "selected" based off prior work experience to take the bar? oh... cause some people have what it takes to practice law and some don't.
Yes, and your law school is the FAA Academy NOT that great CTI school you went to for thousands of dollars...
 

lrcr

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2011
96
2
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Seattle, WA
RobertB what are you not grasping? You think that we CTI grads think we are Gods gift at ATC? You think that we don't know that CTI was a joke from the get go? That's not the point anyone is trying to make. It was clear cut, step 1, 2 and 3. We get to 3 and then the ground we were standing on just disappeared. Now we are looking at the aftermath of loans and lost time. Some people didn't lose much but some lost a great deal. Some made family and/or career sacrifices.. That’s what the good majority of CTIs are arguing not that we are better than anyone else.
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
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RobertB what are you not grasping? You think that we CTI grads think we are Gods gift at ATC? You think that we don't know that CTI was a joke from the get go? That's not the point anyone is trying to make. It was clear cut, step 1, 2 and 3. We get to 3 and then the ground we were standing on just disappeared. Now we are looking at the aftermath of loans and lost time. Some people didn't lose much but some lost a great deal. Some made family and/or career sacrifices.. That’s what the good majority of CTIs are arguing not that we are better than anyone else.
All I was quoting is someone throwing around untrue statistics with no backing at all. Don't get your panties in a wad. The FAA NEVER said that the only way to get picked up was to go through a CTI program. The FAA stated it was an avenue to becoming an air traffic controller. It sucks that you guys have taken out loans to try and become an air traffic controller, but those loans are no different than someone taking out loans to get a degree in biology. Use the quality of your degree on paper (associate, bachelors, masters, etc) to help you get a job with the FAA or someone else. All is not lost simply because they stopped hiring CTI students with a separate bid...
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
869
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+1

even if we didn't go into debt....it's still 9+ months of life that could have been spent doing something else. advancing current careers, learning another skill set.

i understand cti schools weren't offering diverse enough hiring pools. but is ceasing to use the CTI pool with absolutely no warning the right way to go about fixing the situation? why not spend 2+ years transparently working with the CTI schools to get them to attract more diverse groups via recruiting practices, loans, grants....etc. or put out an announcement that says 'we have discovered problems within the CTI program that we have been unable to resolve, and thus we intend to phase out the use of CTI hiring. however over the next 2-3 years we will continue to honor the degrees to the students who have made the financial/time sacrifices.' gives people still in school the opportunity to transfer to airport management or another program, and the graduates a chance that's a little notch above an OTS hire.
... Because the FAA doesn't care! Once someone above and outside of the agency told them to change, the FAA changed instantly to appease Congress, the NAACP, etc. When you add up the difference between CTI hires, OTS hires, and VRA hires, there is nothing that stands out to help the agency need to keep a separate hiring program with just CTIs. So if someone tells them to diversify the workforce, by God they are going to diversify the workforce to the maximum extent possible!
 

NovemberEcho

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
4,388
68
48
Long Island
My only issue is that you keep calling your CTI degree useless. I think that is a premature statement until the results of the Feb bid are in. For all you know, the CTI degree will still count over someone with an Accounting degree. The fact is no one knows yet. I'm not saying I wouldn't be just as mad if I was in your position, but because I'm not maybe I'm able to look at the situation more objectively. Now if after this bid it is shown that the vast majority of selectees were not CTI applicants, then I think you would all have a much more legitimate argument.
 

angelorozco101

Moderator
Oct 27, 2011
771
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My only issue is that you keep calling your CTI degree useless. I think that is a premature statement until the results of the Feb bid are in. For all you know, the CTI degree will still count over someone with an Accounting degree. The fact is no one knows yet. I'm not saying I wouldn't be just as mad if I was in your position, but because I'm not maybe I'm able to look at the situation more objectively. Now if after this bid it is shown that the vast majority of selectees were not CTI applicants, then I think you would all have a much more legitimate argument.
I agree 100% with this NE. I only have an AS and CTI with work experience under my belt and I'm not giving up yet. Plan b is military for me.
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
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this would be true if there was one company in the US that hired biologists and the entire biology program at every university across the country was sanctioned by that one company, and they just stopped considering a biology degree out of the blue one day.

A Bachelor's is still just a degree to help you get a job. It doesn't guarantee employment in a certain field so use it to get a job even if it is not in air traffic.

then why create the program in the first place? and why continue to allow expansion of the programs if there's a known problem?

The program was created and supported to help offset some of the cost to train potential controllers. According to the FAA, it costs roughly 20K per student that goes through tower class at the academy( 30K for enroute). So you can see the cost effectiveness IF these people can certify when they enter the agency. The problem is that is not what is happening and the ones that are certifying are taking too long to justify telling an outside group to piss off when it comes to diversity. The FAA just approves of the content that is being taught. If a school wants to expand and offer its student a degree that focuses on air traffic control, why would the federal government stop them from doing that?


there are other ways to do it than this, that would both diversify the workforce while honoring the programs that they created until they're either fixed or dissolved.
...and what are those ways to meet the diversity quotas while honoring "commitments" to these CTI programs? I can only guess on the demographics of CTI students, but I cannot imagine that aren't overly Caucasian males. That goes against diversifying a profession that is overly Caucasian males.
 

chaseus1

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
199
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My only issue is that you keep calling your CTI degree useless. I think that is a premature statement until the results of the Feb bid are in. For all you know, the CTI degree will still count over someone with an Accounting degree. The fact is no one knows yet. I'm not saying I wouldn't be just as mad if I was in your position, but because I'm not maybe I'm able to look at the situation more objectively. Now if after this bid it is shown that the vast majority of selectees were not CTI applicants, then I think you would all have a much more legitimate argument.
If CTI counts more than other degrees, the FAA will get the same results. They are not going to make all of these changes just to get the same results. Especially with so many eyes watching now.
 

PhillyManlove

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2013
237
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Philly
a four year degree is a 4 year degree is a four year degree. it doesn't matter what it was in.... if it mattered they would have asked you if you completed a cti degree.
 

Damandg

Newcomer
Apr 15, 2013
2
0
1
What are you talking about bro....the hours you spend In FAA APPROVED TOWER SIMULATORS FAA APPROVED RADAR SIMULATORS FAA APPROVED EN ROUTE SIMULATORS all the same used at the actual facility in OKC and having a Control Tower Operating test Score of 100 already doesn't make you more qualified. I don't understand how you think a 35% success rate for OTS compared to a 75% success rate for CTI doesn't make you more valuable.
 

chaseus1

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
199
1
18
What are you talking about bro....the hours you spend In FAA APPROVED TOWER SIMULATORS FAA APPROVED RADAR SIMULATORS FAA APPROVED EN ROUTE SIMULATORS all the same used at the actual facility in OKC and having a Control Tower Operating test Score of 100 already doesn't make you more qualified. I don't understand how you think a 35% success rate for OTS compared to a 75% success rate for CTI doesn't make you more valuable.
Not sure where you heard about the 35/75 success rates. I doubt there is that much of a difference. And it is not just what we are talking about bro.... it is how the FAA is rating bids.... And all those things you mentioned, the FAA has decided they don't count anymore. Don't argue with us, take it up with them....
 

ajmezz

Epic Member
Apr 8, 2010
1,811
28
48
I wonder when people are going to stop bitching and complaining about something they can't change and just deal with it. Life throws constant curve balls. Changes happen everyday in life, get used to it. Don't give yourself a damn brain aneurism trying to figure out why or arguing about it.
 

h4xit

Trusted Contributor
Dec 9, 2010
688
13
18
What are you talking about bro....the hours you spend In FAA APPROVED TOWER SIMULATORS FAA APPROVED RADAR SIMULATORS FAA APPROVED EN ROUTE SIMULATORS all the same used at the actual facility in OKC and having a Control Tower Operating test Score of 100 already doesn't make you more qualified. I don't understand how you think a 35% success rate for OTS compared to a 75% success rate for CTI doesn't make you more valuable.
Lol so your school had lockmart come in and install full capability ERAM scopes with ATCoach backends? Doubtful.

Also does anyone have a source for CPC success via OTS vs CTI? Everyone keeps spouting off these numbers but no one can produce a source.